::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46742 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 720 bytes) Date : Sat Feb 19 18:26:29 2000 From : kgaughan@bigfoot.com Subject: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <88keq8$k0q$1@nnrp1.deja.com> What are the things which get your goat when it comes to the way programmers write their programs? Is it people who refuse to use the pollmask properly and null poll even when they don't need it? Is it when icons flicker needlessly when you can't change their values with up/down buttons? Any suggestions? K. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: DLM Design * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46749 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 1968 bytes) Date : Sat Feb 19 18:26:31 2000 From : tolsson@cut.this.out.pip.dknet.dk Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In article <88keq8$k0q$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Keith Gaughan writes: > What are the things which get your goat when it comes to the way > programmers write their programs? > [...] > Any suggestions? Well IMHO, the program from hell would: 1. Have a pointless !Boot file containing IconSprites .!Sprites and nothing else. 2. A !Sprites file containing things like file_fff or radioon, and things that noone else is going to use. 3. An !app sprite larger than 68*68 os units. 4. Contain files locked against deletion. 5. Pass on keypresses that it has already reacted to itself (like A-z in writable icons). 6. An Iconbar menu that pops up at the wrong height. 7. Change/restore the pointer shape but leave the wrong palette. 8. Have stupid key shortcuts like F3 for quit without saving. 9. Assume undocumented stuff. A. Leave files open when something fails while loading them, and close all files when it fails to open what it wants. B. While running, keep opening windows in the same fixed place instead of where you left them. C. Having !Help start some fancy viewer app that is in every way inferior to Zap displaying a text file. D. Singletask for long periods without turning on an hourglass. E. Use Hourglass_Smash. F. Move the pointer. That's enough for today. Why do you want this anyway? :-) Regards, Thomas. -- What Do You Think Will Go Wrong Today? Thomas Olsson Leave only "pip.dknet.dk" as hostname if replying by mail. The ARMpit http://pip.dknet.dk/~tolsson/ --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: Tele Danmark Internet Cyberspace Launchpad * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46750 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 3296 bytes) Date : Sat Feb 19 18:26:32 2000 From : peter@erble.freeserve.co.uk Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In message tolsson@cut.this.out.pip.dknet.dk (Thomas Olsson) wrote: > Well IMHO, the program from hell would: > > 1. Have a pointless !Boot file containing IconSprites .!Sprites and > nothing else. > 2. A !Sprites file containing things like file_fff or radioon, and things > that noone else is going to use. > 3. An !app sprite larger than 68*68 os units. > 4. Contain files locked against deletion. > 5. Pass on keypresses that it has already reacted to itself (like A-z in > writable icons). > 6. An Iconbar menu that pops up at the wrong height. > 7. Change/restore the pointer shape but leave the wrong palette. > 8. Have stupid key shortcuts like F3 for quit without saving. > 9. Assume undocumented stuff. > A. Leave files open when something fails while loading them, and close all > files when it fails to open what it wants. > B. While running, keep opening windows in the same fixed place instead of > where you left them. > C. Having !Help start some fancy viewer app that is in every way inferior to > Zap displaying a text file. > D. Singletask for long periods without turning on an hourglass. > E. Use Hourglass_Smash. > F. Move the pointer. G. Have needless extra folders/app dirs - esp. when you should be using !Scrap or Choices. H. Not first claim enough wimpslot for CLI apps (e.g. GCC, CVS) I. Have filer icons appear at the wrong height. J. Have a README outside the app, but no !Help file. K. Run programs from !Boot, so it gets run when you first see the app. L. Not support drag and drop in all the ways it should. M. Make writeable fields that aren't navigable with tab or cursor keys. N. Not pass F12 keypress when it should. O. Take forever to start up, and not multitask whilst doing it. P. Not work on Pre-RISC OS 4 without a really good reason. Q. Display error messages ending "..." without any follow on. R. Not redisplay menus when adjust is used. S. Allow panes to be dragged away from main window when using MoveWin. T. Not follow the style guide, when you don't have something superior. U. Not allow settings to be saved. V. Have gross spelling/grammatical errors in the help. W. Not support the clipboard protocol if it use cut and paste type operations. X. Not quit after receiving a shutdown message. Y. Support the Help protocol half-heartedly, or for only some parts. Z. Not shut up :-) Peter -- +---------------------------------------------+-----------------------------+ | Peter Naulls - pnaulls@usa.net | | | http://free.prohosting.com/~chocky/ | Java and JVM Consultant | | Java for RISC OS and ARM - java-arm@usa.net | Technical Author | | http://free.prohosting.com/~chocky/java/ | Program performance analyst | +---------------------------------------------+-----------------------------+ --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: Customer of Planet Online * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46751 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 1440 bytes) Date : Sat Feb 19 18:26:32 2000 From : kortink@inter.nl.net Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <38AE7036.1F38D737@inter.nl.net> Keith Gaughan wrote: > > What are the things which get your goat when it comes to the way > programmers write their programs? Is it people who refuse to use the > pollmask properly and null poll even when they don't need it? Is it > when icons flicker needlessly when you can't change their values with > up/down buttons? > > Any suggestions? I have a few. People using non-standard colours in their icons and windows never fails to put strain on some of my more precious bodyparts. Just because someone decides yellow, red and brown are their all time favourite colours doesn't mean they have to confront the world with their tastes by messing up the entire desktop scene. Also, people who put their icons on the wrong side of the icon bar (primarily left when they shouldn't be) get my vote. And people who decide that dragging the info window by the middle is a useful extension. I'm sure there are more. :-) John Kortink That you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you Email : kortink@inter.nl.net Homepage : http://www.inter.nl.net/users/J.Kortink --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: @Home Network * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46752 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 1440 bytes) Date : Sat Feb 19 18:26:33 2000 From : laurie@eh.org Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In message <88keq8$k0q$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Keith Gaughan wrote: > What are the things which get your goat when it comes to the way > programmers write their programs? Is it people who refuse to use the > pollmask properly and null poll even when they don't need it? Is it when > icons flicker needlessly when you can't change their values with up/down > buttons? > > Any suggestions? Yes. Programs that don't exist or aren't available. If it's out there, people deserve credit for shifting their arse enough to write *something* and release *something* which is surely better than The Void we sometimes seem to inhabit. Rather than knock what we've got, we need to keep on producing new stuff. The issue of null polling is a) dependent on an out of date WIMP model (but I guess we're stuck with it ) b) irrelevant. Would I rather have a null polling app, or !Nothing ? Um... Laurie -- http://eh.org/~laurie/comp/acorn/ropython/ for RISC OS Python http://eh.org/~laurie/comp/acorn/trackdown/ for TrackDown --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: Department of Computer Science, King's College, London * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46753 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 1156 bytes) Date : Sat Feb 19 18:26:33 2000 From : mijassw@argonet.co.uk Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In article , tolsson@cut.this.out.pip.dknet.dk (Thomas Olsson) wrote: > > In article <88keq8$k0q$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Keith Gaughan > > writes: > > What are the things which get your goat when it comes to the way > > programmers write their programs? > > [...] >> 4. Contain files locked against deletion............. Why? There may well be data that the Programmer knows you don't want to lose - ie backup configurations and registration details which it would be inadvisable to change? You can always unlock them anyway. The alternative would be to embed them in the program and that would, I think, be going too far. John -- John (Hampshire UK) johnfo@argonet.co.uk --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: ArgoNet, but does not reflect its views * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46754 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 1636 bytes) Date : Sat Feb 19 18:26:33 2000 From : tolsson@cut.this.out.pip.dknet.dk Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In article , John Evans writes: >>> 4. Contain files locked against deletion............. > Why? There may well be data that the Programmer knows you don't want to > lose - ie backup configurations and registration details which it would be > inadvisable to change? Because when I press Menu over !NastyApp and select Delete I want it out of my life, now. And I couldn't care less about "backup configurations" etc.; the more NastyApp-related stuff that disappears, the better. Now if the Programmer really supplies stuff that shouldn't be accidentally changed, he should give R/r attributes to those files. > You can always unlock them anyway. I can also delete surplus !Boot files, fix sprites etc. That doesn't mean it doesn't bother me, which is what the question was about. > The alternative would be to embed them in the program and that would, I > think, be going too far. The alternative is read-only attributes, which is fine by me. Regards, Thomas. -- What Do You Think Will Go Wrong Today? Thomas Olsson Leave only "pip.dknet.dk" as hostname if replying by mail. The ARMpit http://pip.dknet.dk/~tolsson/ --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: Tele Danmark Internet Cyberspace Launchpad * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46755 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 1080 bytes) Date : Sat Feb 19 18:26:33 2000 From : vincent+news@vinc17.org Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <4992c9abd5vincent+news@vinc17.org> In article , Thomas Olsson wrote: > B. While running, keep opening windows in the same fixed place instead of > where you left them. and: Bring windows to the top when redrawing them (e.g. Pluto). > D. Singletask for long periods without turning on an hourglass. I would have said: Singletask for long periods (e.g. Browse and WebServe). -- Vincent Lefèvre - Web: - 100% validated HTML - Acorn Risc PC, Yellow Pig 17, Championnat International des Jeux Mathématiques et Logiques, TETRHEX, etc. Computer science / computer arithmetic / Arénaire project at LIP, ENS-Lyon --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: a training zoo * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46756 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 864 bytes) Date : Sat Feb 19 18:26:33 2000 From : vincent+news@vinc17.org Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <4992ca40bevincent+news@vinc17.org> In article , Peter Naulls wrote: > K. Run programs from !Boot, so it gets run when you first see the app. Redefine Filer$Path in !Boot. -- Vincent Lefèvre - Web: - 100% validated HTML - Acorn Risc PC, Yellow Pig 17, Championnat International des Jeux Mathématiques et Logiques, TETRHEX, etc. Computer science / computer arithmetic / Arénaire project at LIP, ENS-Lyon --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: a training zoo * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46757 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 1200 bytes) Date : Sat Feb 19 18:26:34 2000 From : vincent+news@vinc17.org Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <4992ca7fb4vincent+news@vinc17.org> In article , John Evans wrote: > >> 4. Contain files locked against deletion............. > Why? It takes more time to upgrade or to remove an application. > There may well be data that the Programmer knows you don't want to > lose - ie backup configurations and registration details which it would be > inadvisable to change? You can always unlock them anyway. You don't have to delete anything in the application directory (unless you want to remove the application). -- Vincent Lefèvre - Web: - 100% validated HTML - Acorn Risc PC, Yellow Pig 17, Championnat International des Jeux Mathématiques et Logiques, TETRHEX, etc. Computer science / computer arithmetic / Arénaire project at LIP, ENS-Lyon --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: a training zoo * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46760 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 1672 bytes) Date : Sat Feb 19 18:26:34 2000 From : nospam@caspian.uklinux.net.invalid Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In , Peter Naulls wrote: > G. Have needless extra folders/app dirs - esp. when you should be using > !Scrap or Choices. JFShared? ;-) It's a shame Acorn insisted that noone else was allowed to use !System. Something like a "3rdParty" directory alongside each Modules directory would be useful, but the documentation of how System$Path is organised would have to be made more prominent, and of course someone would ignore that anyway and make a mess of it. Actually, that makes another good one: installing modules in the wrong part of !System. Now I'm reminded of a certain game which does both of the following: Ignore Choices, despite being Risc PC only, and install options etc into !System instead. Insist on always loading everything else straight off the CD instead of installing it to HD, when it only takes up a few MB. > K. Run programs from !Boot, so it gets run when you first see the app. ...which aren't StrongARM compatible. Or set the RunAction for text files to run some horrible Help viewer (see Thomas Olsson's point C). -- http://www.caspian.uklinux.net Use the address in the Reply-To header to avoid a spam trap when emailing me. Your newsreader should automatically do so. --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: None * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46767 (Read 6 times, has 0 replies, 1272 bytes) Date : Sun Feb 20 18:27:27 2000 From : news@druck.freeuk.com Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In article <88keq8$k0q$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Keith Gaughan wrote: > What are the things which get your goat when it comes to the way > programmers write their programs? Is it people who refuse to use the > pollmask properly and null poll even when they don't need it? Is it > when icons flicker needlessly when you can't change their values with > up/down buttons? > > Any suggestions? How about:- * Pointlessly request you change mode when they start * Nastily hange mode without asking when the start * Load to the iconbar, run full screen when clicked, but then unforgivably return to a different desktop mode. Or my particular favourite - on 1/10 first runs of the day, crash with a type 5, kill filecore, leave the modem connected, deduct 5p from my bank account, corrupt the mail inbox, and put the POP3 server in an iconsistant state for when you retry. ---druck --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: D.T. * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46768 (Read 6 times, has 0 replies, 1820 bytes) Date : Sun Feb 20 18:27:28 2000 From : John@SPAMduffellb.freeserve.co.uk Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <4992F79856%John@SPAMduffellb.freeserve.co.uk> In message Laurence Tratt wrote: [snip] > If it's out there, people deserve credit for shifting their arse enough to > write *something* and release *something* which is surely better than The > Void we sometimes seem to inhabit. Rather than knock what we've got, we > need to keep on producing new stuff. [snip] I take your points, but I think we're looking for/at things which take 5 seconds or so, and the programmer doesn't (eg, put 1 instead of 0 in for Wimp_Poll R0 to mask null, use Choices:MyApp.Chocies instead .Choices or System:!MyShared.Choices) This sort of thread is useful so that people who write programs can notice what to do to make their programs more appealing etc. it has certainly helped me. Things which are too hard (possibly the global clipboard take extra effort, maybe not lots but still some) can be excused, but easy things are not. A very annoying thing is 2 default action icons - two are OK for two writable fields, especially if not labelled as such, but two mutually exclusive with neither working on RETURN (OK and Cancel) are definately bad. HTH John PS Use the toolbox - it takes care of most of it for you! :-) -- Remove 'spam' from the address to reply Mail (school): john@egglescliffe.org.uk for a reply in schooltime Of course it's the millennium this year, it's been the millennium since 1001! --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: Home * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46769 (Read 6 times, has 0 replies, 3476 bytes) Date : Sun Feb 20 18:27:28 2000 From : John@SPAMduffellb.freeserve.co.uk Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <4992F5BB0A%John@SPAMduffellb.freeserve.co.uk> In message Tony Houghton wrote: > In , > Peter Naulls wrote: > > > G. Have needless extra folders/app dirs - esp. when you should be using > > !Scrap or Choices. > > JFShared? ;-) No. I think that's the correct way of doing things. Although I do get irritated by "this program requires JFShared..." I'd rather have that in Boot:Resources than have it mix itsself in with System - it makes it harder to remove, and also I can't copy JFShared to another machine easily (need SysMerger or something) The best way is to have each app self contained, but then you have extra bulk which you may not want or need. > It's a shame Acorn insisted that noone else was allowed to use !System. > Something like a "3rdParty" directory alongside each Modules directory > would be useful, but the documentation of how System$Path is organised > would have to be made more prominent, and of course someone would ignore > that anyway and make a mess of it. Well if you do that, you can just do a separate app, !ThirdPrty or something and have ThirdParty$Path and store yours there like Choices$Path, then use it as ThirdParty:JDProgs.MyModule where JDProgs is my software house and my modules can be stored there. THen there's a clear difference between 'System' modules and Third party modules. Then again, you could jsut go the whole way, and have a !xyzShared for each app. ;-) > Actually, that makes another good one: installing modules in the wrong > part of !System. Yup, but anything that can be done, will so we jsut have to make it absolutely clear - don't even think about leaving your modules lying around there.. >[DON'T] install options etc into !System instead. !CCShared, anyone? Should be in BootResourceS: Another hate is building the date stamps of System modules into the prog for copy protection. [snip] > > K. Run programs from !Boot, so it gets run when you first see the app. > > ...which aren't StrongARM compatible. Or set the RunAction for text > files to run some horrible Help viewer (see Thomas Olsson's point C). I would have preferred it to be fixed, so that only text can be run from !Help, but unfortunately this can cause problems for internationalisation. Another bad one is to do HTML help files, so that all 4 megs of memory go down the pan on a 4 meg machine and half a meg is gone til the next reboot. For another annoying one, I hate the way the icon bar pops to the back again as soon as you click Select or Adjust on an icon, so if you want to do a few things you have to wait half a second or so between. This wastes ages and is infuriating, I preferred the old behaviour like on the NCs/A5000 at school. I have changed the pop-forward delay to 0.1 seconds now. BFN John -- Remove 'spam' from the address to reply Mail (school): john@egglescliffe.org.uk for a reply in schooltime Of course it's the millennium this year, it's been the millennium since 1001! --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: Home * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46771 (Read 6 times, has 0 replies, 1188 bytes) Date : Sun Feb 20 18:27:29 2000 From : nospam@caspian.uklinux.net.invalid Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In <88keq8$k0q$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Keith Gaughan wrote: > What are the things which get your goat when it comes to the way > programmers write their programs? Is it people who refuse to use the > pollmask properly and null poll even when they don't need it? Is it > when icons flicker needlessly when you can't change their values with > up/down buttons? > > Any suggestions? Here's two more: Icons for inputting wide ranges of numbers without letting you actually type them in, so you either have to spend ages holding down one of the "bumper" arrows, or there's only a slider which isn't accurate enough. -- http://www.caspian.uklinux.net Use the address in the Reply-To header to avoid a spam trap when emailing me. Your newsreader should automatically do so. --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: None * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46772 (Read 6 times, has 0 replies, 1132 bytes) Date : Sun Feb 20 18:27:29 2000 From : rick@actrix.gen.nz Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In message Peter Naulls wrote: > In message > tolsson@cut.this.out.pip.dknet.dk (Thomas Olsson) wrote: > > > Well IMHO, the program from hell would: > > > K. Run programs from !Boot, so it gets run when you first see the app. And forcbily point variables like Alias$@RunType to itself when you have a more preferable app already claiming it. Redefining existing wimp pool sprites also annoys me but the OS makes this hard to avoid no thanks to *IconSprites. :-( -- Rick Hudson rick@actrix.gen.nz --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: Kotipu Place Observatory * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46773 (Read 6 times, has 0 replies, 964 bytes) Date : Sun Feb 20 18:27:29 2000 From : vincent+news@vinc17.org Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <499308989E%vincent+news@vinc17.org> In article , Tony Houghton wrote: > ...which aren't StrongARM compatible. Or set the RunAction for text > files to run some horrible Help viewer (see Thomas Olsson's point C). BTW, is there a way to set variables as read-only? -- Vincent Lefèvre - Web: - 100% validated HTML - Acorn Risc PC, Yellow Pig 17, Championnat International des Jeux Mathématiques et Logiques, TETRHEX, etc. Computer science / computer arithmetic / Arénaire project at LIP, ENS-Lyon --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: a training zoo * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46775 (Read 6 times, has 0 replies, 1316 bytes) Date : Sun Feb 20 18:27:29 2000 From : vincent+news@vinc17.org Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <499310552cvincent+news@vinc17.org> In article <4992F5BB0A%John@SPAMduffellb.freeserve.co.uk>, John Duffell wrote: > I would have preferred it to be fixed, so that only text can be run from > !Help, but unfortunately this can cause problems for internationalisation. This is a bad idea. > Another bad one is to do HTML help files, so that all 4 megs of memory go > down the pan on a 4 meg machine and half a meg is gone til the next reboot. HTML is better, as it allows links... But perhaps another solution would be both HTML and Text help files. If a browser is loaded, load the HTML file, otherwise load the text file. What is the best way to do this? -- Vincent Lefèvre - Web: - 100% validated HTML - Acorn Risc PC, Yellow Pig 17, Championnat International des Jeux Mathématiques et Logiques, TETRHEX, etc. Computer science / computer arithmetic / Arénaire project at LIP, ENS-Lyon --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: a training zoo * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46776 (Read 6 times, has 0 replies, 816 bytes) Date : Sun Feb 20 18:27:30 2000 From : John.Tytgat@aaug.net Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In message Rick Hudson wrote: > Redefining existing wimp pool > sprites also annoys me but the OS makes this hard to avoid no thanks to > *IconSprites. :-( Upgrade to RISC OS 4 and go to Configuration->Windows->Protect ROM sprites. John. -- John Tytgat, in his comfy chair at home BASS John.Tytgat@aaug.net ARM powered, RISC OS driven --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: BASS * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46777 (Read 6 times, has 0 replies, 1264 bytes) Date : Sun Feb 20 18:27:30 2000 From : tolsson@cut.this.out.pip.dknet.dk Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In article <499308989E%vincent+news@vinc17.org>, Vincent Lefevre writes: > In article , Tony Houghton > wrote: >> ...which aren't StrongARM compatible. Or set the RunAction for text files >> to run some horrible Help viewer (see Thomas Olsson's point C). > BTW, is there a way to set variables as read-only? Ooh, good idea! Who will be the first to come up with a module that lets you create and assign code variables with a command like *SetFixed ? Should be trivial. I'd make it now if only I could think of a use for such variables. Thomas. -- What Do You Think Will Go Wrong Today? Thomas Olsson Leave only "pip.dknet.dk" as hostname if replying by mail. The ARMpit http://pip.dknet.dk/~tolsson/ --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: Tele Danmark Internet Cyberspace Launchpad * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46778 (Read 6 times, has 0 replies, 1780 bytes) Date : Sun Feb 20 18:27:30 2000 From : rick@actrix.gen.nz Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In message <499310552cvincent+news@vinc17.org> Vincent Lefevre wrote: > In article <4992F5BB0A%John@SPAMduffellb.freeserve.co.uk>, > John Duffell wrote: > >> I would have preferred it to be fixed, so that only text can be run from >> !Help, but unfortunately this can cause problems for internationalisation. > > This is a bad idea. Indeed. I personally don't like text help files (unless they're short) and prefer StrongHelp as a hypertext help system which is more suited to the context than html. >> Another bad one is to do HTML help files, so that all 4 megs of memory go >> down the pan on a 4 meg machine and half a meg is gone til the next >> reboot. > > HTML is better, as it allows links... Maybe so but having to use a cumbersome web browser is a real pain. > But perhaps another solution would be both HTML and Text help files. If a > browser is loaded, load the HTML file, otherwise load the text file. What > is the best way to do this? That's what I try to do; I write main documentation as a StrongHelp manual and the !help file simply tries to load the StrongHelp manual if StrongHelp is available and revert to a concise text file if it isn't. -- Rick Hudson rick@actrix.gen.nz http://www.actrix.gen.nz/users/rick/ --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: Kotipu Place Observatory * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46784 (Read 6 times, has 0 replies, 800 bytes) Date : Sun Feb 20 18:27:31 2000 From : runnyhunny@mindless.com Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <7eb99349%richard@nctv.freeserve.co.uk> In message <88keq8$k0q$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Keith Gaughan wrote: > What are the things which get your goat when it comes to the way > programmers write their programs? Not having even the *slightest* regard for the Style Guide. For a 'good' example, see WebsterXL. -- Richard. "Will you still need me, will you still feed me. When I'm sixty-four." --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: Richard's home: Stockton-on-Tees, England, UK * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46785 (Read 6 times, has 0 replies, 884 bytes) Date : Sun Feb 20 18:27:32 2000 From : runnyhunny@mindless.com Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <396599349%richard@nctv.freeserve.co.uk> In message "David J. Ruck" wrote: > Or my particular favourite - on 1/10 first runs of the day, crash with a > type 5, kill filecore, leave the modem connected, deduct 5p from my bank > account, corrupt the mail inbox, and put the POP3 server in an > iconsistant state for when you retry. If that Fresco or InetSuite? Or both? -- Richard. "A taste of honey... tasting much sweeter than wine." --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: Richard's home: Stockton-on-Tees, England, UK * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46786 (Read 6 times, has 0 replies, 1508 bytes) Date : Sun Feb 20 18:27:32 2000 From : rick@actrix.gen.nz Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <61f4a9349%rick@rick.actrix.gen.nz> In message John Tytgat wrote: > In message > Rick Hudson wrote: > >> Redefining existing wimp pool sprites also annoys me but the OS makes this >> hard to avoid no thanks to *IconSprites. :-( > > Upgrade to RISC OS 4 and go to Configuration->Windows->Protect ROM sprites. I have RO4 and am fully aware of this protection mechanism. IMO it's a horrible bodge instead of implementing a version of *IconSprites from the outset that only adds currently undefined sprites. This is something I went to some effort to implement in Thump's !Boot so I could have the program supply sprites but not stomp over those the user may already have. Besides, I don't want to protect the ROM sprites. I want to protect my sprites that got soft-loaded at boot-up. (And yes I know there's a utility that can similarly protect all sprites in the wimp pool). -- Rick Hudson rick@actrix.gen.nz http://www.actrix.gen.nz/users/rick/ --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: Kotipu Place Observatory * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46788 (Read 6 times, has 0 replies, 2224 bytes) Date : Sun Feb 20 18:27:32 2000 From : ttehtann@argonet.co.uk Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <49934db2b2ttehtann@argonet.co.uk> In article <88keq8$k0q$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Keith Gaughan wrote: > What are the things which get your goat when it comes to the way > programmers write their programs? Is it people who refuse to use the > pollmask properly and null poll even when they don't need it? Is it > when icons flicker needlessly when you can't change their values with > up/down buttons? > Any suggestions? Well, aside from the null poll issue: A: Programs that have their choices file inside their own directory (which is fine) but come with a default choices file which overwrites yours. Pluto, I'm sorry to say, does this for one of its more obscure options. B: Games programs which leave you in some totally obscure mode when you exit. C: Games programs which not only do the above but also render your system incapable of changing modes without a reboot D: Programs which dump something into the Modules directory & don't provide a way of removing it. Given that the default "uninstall" sequence involves deleting the app directory, anything which requires a more complicated uninstall should provide it. If that involves forcing you to run the uninstall by locking the app dir, fine. E: Programs which provide their own module of some name which is completely incompatible with another module with the same name. Aaarrghh! There are a few other things, like providing customised versions of standard icons, which other people have mentioned. Regards (PC) / Love from (non PC but nicer) [delete as applicable] Thos -- T. R. Tanner email: T, T, E and H Tann(er), who use Argonet, StrongArmed & Dangerous a UK Company,to supply their internet access Clanorak web page: http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/ttehtann Warning: Here be random taglines! ... C program run, C program crash, C programmer cry. --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: None * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46789 (Read 6 times, has 0 replies, 960 bytes) Date : Sun Feb 20 18:27:33 2000 From : tom@compton.nu Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <79c54e9349.tom@compton.compton.nu> In message <7eb99349%richard@nctv.freeserve.co.uk> Richard Walker wrote: > In message <88keq8$k0q$1@nnrp1.deja.com> > Keith Gaughan wrote: > > > What are the things which get your goat when it comes to the way > > programmers write their programs? > > Not having even the *slightest* regard for the Style Guide. For a 'good' > example, see WebsterXL. Or Organiser which is my favourite example of what happens when you ignore the Style Guide. Tom -- Tom Hughes (tom@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ...To do nothing is to be nothing. --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: Fans of Acorn * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46790 (Read 6 times, has 0 replies, 1340 bytes) Date : Sun Feb 20 18:27:33 2000 From : nospam@caspian.uklinux.net.invalid Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In , Thomas Olsson wrote: > In article <499308989E%vincent+news@vinc17.org>, Vincent Lefevre > writes: > > In article , Tony Houghton > > wrote: > >> ...which aren't StrongARM compatible. Or set the RunAction for text files > >> to run some horrible Help viewer (see Thomas Olsson's point C). > > BTW, is there a way to set variables as read-only? > > Ooh, good idea! > Who will be the first to come up with a module that lets you create and assign > code variables with a command like *SetFixed ? Remember to provide a command to turn them back into ordinary RW variables though ;-). -- http://www.caspian.uklinux.net Use the address in the Reply-To header to avoid a spam trap when emailing me. Your newsreader should automatically do so. --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: None * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46791 (Read 6 times, has 0 replies, 1724 bytes) Date : Sun Feb 20 18:27:33 2000 From : steve.drain@kappa.zetnet.co.uk Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: Vincent Lefevre wrote: > John Duffell wrote: > > I would have preferred it to be fixed, so that only text can be run from > > !Help, but unfortunately this can cause problems for internationalisation. > This is a bad idea. > > Another bad one is to do HTML help files, so that all 4 megs of memory go > > down the pan on a 4 meg machine and half a meg is gone til the next reboot. > HTML is better, as it allows links... But perhaps another solution > would be both HTML and Text help files. If a browser is loaded, load > the HTML file, otherwise load the text file. What is the best way to > do this? I am not alone in doing the following: !Help is an Obey file that does Filer_OpenDir on a 'Documents' directory inside the application, and Filer_Run on a text 'Help' file within it. The 'Help' file has only a brief introduction to the application, including its purpose, version and author. The 'Documents' directory may hold a more extensive text 'Manual', a StrongHelp manual and could hold an HTML manual or any other special type. This arrangement leaves the choice of format up to the user. -- ; ,', Steve Drain. Kappa http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/kappa/ ;,' Basil: share BASIC libraries RFSFiles: add/remove files in Resources ;', New StrongHelp BASIC manual: ,; ',, http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/kappa/Strong/Basic/ --- EchoMaker 0.50 * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46795 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 1292 bytes) Date : Wed Feb 23 18:36:16 2000 From : vincent+news@vinc17.org Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <49936c824evincent+news@vinc17.org> In article , Tony Houghton wrote: > > Ooh, good idea! > > Who will be the first to come up with a module that lets you create and > > assign code variables with a command like *SetFixed ? > Remember to provide a command to turn them back into ordinary RW > variables though ;-). Something like *SetReadOnly ... *SetReadWrite ... (without setting the value) would be better IHMO. You can use SetReadOnly near the end of your boot sequence, but before the applications are booted. And wildcards could be used. -- Vincent Lefèvre - Web: - 100% validated HTML - Acorn Risc PC, Yellow Pig 17, Championnat International des Jeux Mathématiques et Logiques, TETRHEX, etc. Computer science / computer arithmetic / Arénaire project at LIP, ENS-Lyon --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: a training zoo * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46797 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 1200 bytes) Date : Wed Feb 23 18:36:16 2000 From : news@youmustbejoking.demon.com.uk Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <4993105CAD%news@youmustbejoking.demon.com.uk> In message <499308989E%vincent+news@vinc17.org> Vincent Lefevre wrote: > In article , > Tony Houghton wrote: >> ...which aren't StrongARM compatible. Or set the RunAction for text files >> to run some horrible Help viewer (see Thomas Olsson's point C). > BTW, is there a way to set variables as read-only? Use a code variable which ignores all but the initial write :-) -- | Darren Salt | nr. Ashington, | Acorn | d youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | RPC, Spec+3, A3010 | Northumberland | Club | s zap,uk,eu,org | BBC M128, Linux PC | Toon Army | NE | @ retrospec,co,uk | ChrEd. AppSquash. BlockSize. Decoders. FontMsgs. He's not dead, Jim, he's just metabolically challenged. --- EchoMaker 0.50 * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46798 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 2032 bytes) Date : Wed Feb 23 18:36:16 2000 From : iainXXX@rednova.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In message Steve Drain wrote: > I am not alone in doing the following: > > !Help is an Obey file that does Filer_OpenDir on a 'Documents' > directory inside the application, and Filer_Run on a text 'Help' file > within it. > > The 'Help' file has only a brief introduction to the application, > including its purpose, version and author. The 'Documents' directory > may hold a more extensive text 'Manual', a StrongHelp manual and > could hold an HTML manual or any other special type. I've never been a big fan of this. The Help file opened often contains something like 'For see the .doc directory' - which I then locate and open, only to discover it already has been opened. If it does explain itself properly, 'For see the files in the directory viewer which has just been opened', then this is inelegant. It also leads to wondering what the Help file in that directory is, and then to discover it's the file you've just been viewing. It's messy, and I would hope we can assume StrongHelp is available on most systems - with an alternative text file describing how to get StrongHelp along with concise instructions, as described by Rick Hudson. Personally, I don't mind the HTML approach (apart from the extra window furniture that entails), but if we have to go around supporting age old machines with not enough memory to run a browser (or maybe not the desire to run one), then we can't do that. -- To avoid being sent to a communal spam bin, remove the XXX to e-mail me. You'll get a quicker response -- Iain Williamson --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: Rednova Industries * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46799 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 1052 bytes) Date : Wed Feb 23 18:36:16 2000 From : RjY@sp.am Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: Keith Gaughan typed... >What are the things which get your goat when it comes to the way >programmers write their programs? Is it people who refuse to use the >pollmask properly and null poll even when they don't need it? Is it >when icons flicker needlessly when you can't change their values with >up/down buttons? > >Any suggestions? Programs that you can't quit because if you do they leave 400K holes in your module area that you can't shrink. Programs that hog memory like that get on my nerves. If it wasn't for the huge benefits over (say) !Edit, I'd stop using Zap for this reason :-) -- RjY/anARCHy "Well, Ted, I'm very cynical as you know..." --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: anARCHy * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46801 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 828 bytes) Date : Wed Feb 23 18:36:17 2000 From : mijassw@argonet.co.uk Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In article , tolsson@cut.this.out.pip.dknet.dk (Thomas Olsson) wrote: > > The alternative would be to embed them in the program and that would, I > > think, be going too far. > > The alternative is read-only attributes, which is fine by me. > Out of interest, exactly how would you set up the file attributes? John -- John (Hampshire UK) johnfo@argonet.co.uk --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: ArgoNet, but does not reflect its views * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46805 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 1132 bytes) Date : Wed Feb 23 18:36:18 2000 From : news@youmustbejoking.demon.com.uk Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <49938C571B%news@youmustbejoking.demon.com.uk> In message <49934db2b2ttehtann@argonet.co.uk> Tanner Family wrote: [snip] > C: Games programs which not only do the above but also render your system > incapable of changing modes without a reboot This can be restored to normality by *Shadow 1 or, equivalently, *FX 114 1 If this doesn't work, then the game has probably used its own MDF. The shadow mode problem is caused by stupidity; *this* is evil. -- | Darren Salt | d youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | nr. Ashington, | Acorn | RPC, Spec+3, A3010 | s zap,uk,eu,org ** anti-UBE | Northumberland | Club | BBC M128, Linux PC | @ retrospec,co,uk | Toon Army | NE | Wanted: PRM v5/5a The star of riches is shining upon you. --- EchoMaker 0.50 * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46807 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 1088 bytes) Date : Wed Feb 23 18:36:18 2000 From : tolsson@cut.this.out.pip.dknet.dk Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In article , John Evans writes: > In article , > tolsson@cut.this.out.pip.dknet.dk (Thomas Olsson) wrote: > > > The alternative is read-only attributes, which is fine by me. > > Out of interest, exactly how would you set up the file attributes? Erm, perhaps I'm misunderstanding you here, but "*Access R/r" usually does the trick. Or use your favourite filer. Thomas. -- What Do You Think Will Go Wrong Today? Thomas Olsson Leave only "pip.dknet.dk" as hostname if replying by mail. The ARMpit http://pip.dknet.dk/~tolsson/ --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: Tele Danmark Internet Cyberspace Launchpad * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46809 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 2248 bytes) Date : Wed Feb 23 18:36:18 2000 From : justin@thevillage.ndirect.co.uk Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In message John Evans wrote: > In article , > tolsson@cut.this.out.pip.dknet.dk (Thomas Olsson) wrote: > > > > In article <88keq8$k0q$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Keith Gaughan > > > > writes: > > > What are the things which get your goat when it comes to the way > > > programmers write their programs? > > > [...] > > >> 4. Contain files locked against deletion............. > > Why? There may well be data that the Programmer knows you don't want to > lose - ie backup configurations and registration details which it would be > inadvisable to change? You can always unlock them anyway. Because if the User is going to fiddle with the insides of your application then they are in Unknown Territory (tm) and Deserve Everything They Get (tm). Programmers should know what they are doing and don't need to have them locked against to get around. The only thing it stops you doing is deleting the whole application by accident. It is 'inadvisable to change' any parts of the insides of an application unless you know what you are doing. Anything storing its configuration inside the application on RISC OS 3.5 or later is Doing It Wrong (tm). > The alternative would be to embed them in the program and that would, > I think, be going too far. I don't think so really... Tying the application to know about the registration details is a greater deterrant than (say) creating a file called Register with the details in it that people could attach to the bottom of an email easily (a 32 byte file is a little easier to pass around than a 800k executable). Locking files is just annoying :-( -- Justin Fletcher, idly wandering through the meadow of newsgroups Personal URL: http://www.thevillage.ndirect.co.uk/justin/ --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: RISCOS Ltd * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46830 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 1536 bytes) Date : Wed Feb 23 18:36:23 2000 From : jtribbeck@argogroup.com Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <38B1CAD8.F96823AB@argogroup.com> James Bursa wrote: > It's not all that surprising that so many programs totally ignore the style > guide - Draw, Paint, Edit etc still don't conform (after 6 years!), so they > don't really set a good example. Acorn seem to have written the style > guide, and then just ignored it entirely. I don't think it's really a case of that - it's probably more like the apps were developed, and then the style guide was written (probably using their mistakes), but Acorn never got around to making their apps compliant (either because they didn't have the resources or couldn't be bothered). ISTRC in Acorn's documentation somewhere mentioning that you shouldn't assume that Acorn's applications were compliant. > Loads of programs have badly designed menu structures. For example, you > often get both 'Edit' and 'Selection', and a 'Misc' menu which should be > called 'File' or something. The menu structure should either be very They're probably copying !Edit or something ;-) -- Jason Tribbeck, Senior Engineer, Argo Interactive 7 Dukes Court, Chichester, West Sussex, PO19 2FX, England Tel: +44 (1243) 815 815, Fax: +44 (1243) 815 805, www.argogroup.com --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: Argo Interactive Ltd * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46831 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 1116 bytes) Date : Wed Feb 23 18:36:23 2000 From : johnfo@argonet.co.uk Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In article , tolsson@cut.this.out.pip.dknet.dk (Thomas Olsson) wrote: > > Out of interest, exactly how would you set up the file attributes? > > Erm, perhaps I'm misunderstanding you here, but "*Access R/r" > usually does the trick. Or use your favourite filer. > I just did this and then brought the file into (source)edit and changed it!!! Before editing I checked the access - it was owner read but not write and public read but not write. EDIT CHANGED IT to owner read and write!!!! Tried again and the same thing happened. This is why I have been forced to lock files. Or what am I doing wrong? John -- John (Hampshire UK) johnfo@argonet.co.uk --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: ArgoNet, but does not reflect its views * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46839 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 2312 bytes) Date : Wed Feb 23 18:36:24 2000 From : tolsson@cut.this.out.pip.dknet.dk Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In article , John Evans writes: > In article , > tolsson@cut.this.out.pip.dknet.dk (Thomas Olsson) wrote: >>> Out of interest, exactly how would you set up the file attributes? >> >> Erm, perhaps I'm misunderstanding you here, but "*Access R/r" >> usually does the trick. Or use your favourite filer. > > I just did this and then brought the file into (source)edit and changed > it!!! Before editing I checked the access - it was owner read but not write > and public read but not write. EDIT CHANGED IT to owner read and write!!!! Yes I know. !Edit is cr*p isn't it? This is one of the countless reasons to use Zap instead of Edit. > Tried again and the same thing happened. This is why I have been forced to > lock files. Or what am I doing wrong? You're assuming you can control what the user does to your program, once it's on his own machine. You can't control anything. Not a single bit is safe. Lock it, encrypt it, hide it, you can't protect it. If the user wants to corrupt your program, he has 1000 ways to do it. If you have an important file... and I mean really important, like !RunImage, put a CRC on it and check that. This prevents accidental corruption in most cases (but not willful stuff of course). This is the only way, even LR/r attributes can easily be lost during a transfer over various filing systems. It's a tough world, I'm sorry. I still stand by my assertion that L attributes in archives are annoying. It's useful for protection against my own fumbling, but it should be myself setting them, on files _I_ decide shouldn't be deleted at a keypress. Thomas. -- What Do You Think Will Go Wrong Today? Thomas Olsson Leave only "pip.dknet.dk" as hostname if replying by mail. The ARMpit http://pip.dknet.dk/~tolsson/ --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: Tele Danmark Internet Cyberspace Launchpad * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46841 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 1676 bytes) Date : Wed Feb 23 18:36:25 2000 From : Tig@whitekt.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In article , Iain Williamson wrote: > I would hope we can assume StrongHelp is available on most systems - with > an alternative text file describing how to get StrongHelp along with > concise instructions, as described by Rick Hudson. No. The only thing you can assume is that there is text editor as one is provided in ROM. I hate programs which assume I have something else, indeed only five minutes ago I clicked on a help icon to be told Stonghelp wasn't available - I do not want to be told what software I must have on my system, and I consider it very poor practice to provide help via a system that is not directly supported via either the default provisions of the OS or by means provided with the application. Sorry guys and girls but the !Help file pretty much has to be text. Please feel free to use this to point to more detailed help (along the lines of an on line manual) but the !Help file is there to help at application level - ie basic instructions on running and using only, and as such should provide this whatever else it may do. -- _____ |. _ Tig@whitekt.demon.co.uk ||(_) ____) White Knight on the Web - http://www.whitekt.demon.co.uk --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: White Knight * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46810 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 2028 bytes) Date : Wed Feb 23 18:36:19 2000 From : speedstr@stracciatella.hinet.net Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <72e9269349%speedstr@stracciatella.hinet.net> In message Laurence Tratt wrote: > In message <88keq8$k0q$1@nnrp1.deja.com> > Keith Gaughan wrote: > > > What are the things which get your goat when it comes to the way > > programmers write their programs? Is it people who refuse to use the > > pollmask properly and null poll even when they don't need it? Is it when > > icons flicker needlessly when you can't change their values with up/down > > buttons? > > > > Any suggestions? > > Yes. > > Programs that don't exist or aren't available. > > If it's out there, people deserve credit for shifting their arse enough to > write *something* and release *something* which is surely better than The > Void we sometimes seem to inhabit. Rather than knock what we've got, we > need to keep on producing new stuff. I wholeheartedly agree with you, Laurie. Though I wouldn't say The Void, but the garbage: All those apps that do more or less the same thing, but with different features, and that don't work anymore at the next OS upgrade. Anyway, I can talk but the problem is much worse on windows and the commercials that pollute the shelves in PC shops. Let's recycle our apps ! > The issue of null polling is a) dependent on an out of date WIMP model (but > I guess we're stuck with it ) b) irrelevant. Would I rather have a > null polling app, or !Nothing ? Um... You mean the preemptive model ? -- Jérôme Mathevet http://www.multimania.com/mathevet Freeware for RISC OS (FYEO, STSound, Games) and StrongHelp manuals --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: Home (dans mon chez-moi) * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46811 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 1116 bytes) Date : Wed Feb 23 18:36:19 2000 From : vincent+news@vinc17.org Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <4993ccf107vincent+news@vinc17.org> In article , RjY wrote: > Programs that you can't quit because if you do they leave 400K holes in > your module area that you can't shrink. Programs that hog memory like > that get on my nerves. If it wasn't for the huge benefits over (say) > !Edit, I'd stop using Zap for this reason :-) But why quitting Zap? Here it is loaded at boot time, and I use it all the time, so I almost never quit it. -- Vincent Lefèvre - Web: - 100% validated HTML - Acorn Risc PC, Yellow Pig 17, Championnat International des Jeux Mathématiques et Logiques, TETRHEX, etc. Computer science / computer arithmetic / Arénaire project at LIP, ENS-Lyon --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: a training zoo * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46814 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 1300 bytes) Date : Wed Feb 23 18:36:19 2000 From : kgaughan@bigfoot.com Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <88rguh$3bs$1@nnrp1.deja.com> In article , tolsson@cut.this.out.pip.dknet.dk (Thomas Olsson) wrote: > > Why do you want this anyway? :-) I've always wondered what sort of things in other people's programs annoyed people. I know I nearly always when I come across an app which has non-standard templates, I tend to redo the templates if I can. I also hate people who update icons when they don't need to, which makes them flicker. I hate when people don't handle null polls properly ie. masking them out when they don't need them or using Wimp_Poll instead of Wimp_PollIdle when they do... I could go on forever :-) I also want to compile a list of dos and don'ts for programmers which is a product of csap rather than handed down by God (Acorn's Style Guide) and is more organic & liquid (I'll explain this if anybody wants me to). Does anybody like the idea? Cheers! K. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: DLM Design * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46819 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 1504 bytes) Date : Wed Feb 23 18:36:20 2000 From : vincent+news@vinc17.org Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <4993e77b55vincent+news@vinc17.org> I've just downloaded Psionconv, and it contains 2 examples of things not to do. First, the !Boot file contains: |Temporary Directory Ifthere .Psionconv Then Else CDir .Psionconv Echo Dummy { > .Psionconv.Dummy } Wipe .Psionconv.* ~C R ~V |Used to generate temporary files Set Psionconv$TempCount 1 |Configuration File Ifthere Choices:Psionconv Then Else CDir .Psionconv Ifthere Choices:Psionconv.ConfPsiROS Then Else Copy .ConfPsiROS .Psionconv.ConfPsiROS ~C ~V which caused here a not enough memory error. This should be in the !Run file. And the !Boot file contains: Iconsprites .!Sprites though !Psionconv contains !Sprites22 instead of !Sprites. As I use a rectangular-pixel mode, I don't have any icon for !Psionconv. -- Vincent Lefèvre - Web: - 100% validated HTML - Acorn Risc PC, Yellow Pig 17, Championnat International des Jeux Mathématiques et Logiques, TETRHEX, etc. Computer science / computer arithmetic / Arénaire project at LIP, ENS-Lyon --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: a training zoo * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46821 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 3228 bytes) Date : Wed Feb 23 18:36:21 2000 From : keithgaughanNOkeSPAM@yahoo.com.invalid Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <002571ed.9771baf0@usw-ex0102-084.remarq.com> Laurence Tratt wrote: >Keith Gaughan wrote: >> What are the things which get your goat when it comes to the >> way programmers write their programs? Is it people who refuse >> to use the pollmask properly and null poll even when they >> don't need it? Is it when icons flicker needlessly when you >> can't change their values with up/down buttons? > >Yes. > >Programs that don't exist or aren't available. I get the feeling you're attacking me... If you are, I *AM* a programmer, but I'm at college now, and I've got far to many exams and projects to do to spare all that much time towards what I'd really like to be doing now - programming. The reason why I posted this to csap rather than csam or one of the other groups was that I wanted the perspective of other programmers first. >If it's out there, people deserve credit for shifting their >arse enough to write *something* and release *something* which >is surely better than The Void we sometimes seem to inhabit. >Rather than knock what we've got, we need to keep on producing >new stuff. Do they if it's a piece of shit which works badly, slows down your computer, fucks up your data and generally causes more pain than it's worth? Good programmers deserve to be rewarded (I have no qualms with that), but the rest should either improve or do something else... I'm not knocking anybody's program (did I even once name anybody or any of their work?) - I'm just trying to ascertain what the posters of csap see as signs of bad workmanship. Do you employ a bad builder even though you have a lot of houses to build? Not unless you're an idiot you don't! [BTW: I don't criticise people and the applications they've written in public forums like this one. It's better to approach them first and talk it over with them, I find.] >The issue of null polling is a) dependent on an out of date >WIMP model (but I guess we're stuck with it ) b) >irrelevant. Would I rather have a null polling app, or >!Nothing ? Um... 'scuse me? Does RISC OS support pre-emptive multitasking? No! That's why it's important to mask out the null poll if you're not using it is that you'll be considerate and let the apps which need the extra CPU time get it. And it doesn't take all that work to mask it out either, does it? It's not irrelevant - we are stuck with co-operative multitasking. I'm sorry if I'm coming over as rather offensive, but of all the issues raised in the thread, lack of care when polling is the one which gets me most. It's a sign of lazyness. I've a feeling I might get attacked for this... K. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46822 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 2008 bytes) Date : Wed Feb 23 18:36:21 2000 From : keithgaughanNOkeSPAM@yahoo.com.invalid Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <08acfb4f.9f1e70f7@usw-ex0102-084.remarq.com> In article <61f4a9349%rick@rick.actrix.gen.nz>, Rick Hudson wrote: >In message > John Tytgat wrote: > >> In message >> Rick Hudson wrote: >> >>> Redefining existing wimp pool sprites also annoys me but the >>> OS makes this hard to avoid no thanks to *IconSprites. :-( >> >> Upgrade to RISC OS 4 and go to Configuration->Windows- >> Protect ROM sprites. > > I have RO4 and am fully aware of this protection mechanism. IMO > it's a horrible bodge instead of implementing a version of > *IconSprites from the outset that only adds currently undefined > sprites. This is something I went to some effort to implement > in Thump's !Boot so I could have the program supply sprites but > not stomp over those the user may already have. > >Besides, I don't want to protect the ROM sprites. I want to >protect my sprites that got soft-loaded at boot-up. (And yes I >know there's a utility that can similarly protect all sprites >in the wimp pool). Here's an idea (I'm surprised nobody suggested this beforehand or that it hasn't already been implemented): By default, *IconSprites will mask out any sprites already defined, but adding a switch (say, '-overwrite') would allow overwriting to occur. Everybody's happy, problem solved! K. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46864 (Read 6 times, has 0 replies, 1176 bytes) Date : Fri Feb 25 18:28:15 2000 From : jim.nagel@UKonline.co.uk.spamyourself Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In article <88keq8$k0q$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Keith Gaughan wrote: > What are the things which get your goat when it comes to the way > programmers write their programs? ... Any suggestions? puhLEASE include a !help file stating the version number, so that people like me who sometimes get copies at various stages can tell which version is which without having to load them all. and while you're at it, put your email address in the helpfile, or even an URL to dubbleclik. -- --jim nagel Computer Shopper magazine UK, freelance on a StrongArm xAcorn Risc Machine. British technik. no tax to Gate$. immune from MMillenniu worries: online till 2248 AD remove ".spamyourself" to reply -- unless you are a spammer --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: speaking for myself * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46868 (Read 6 times, has 0 replies, 2368 bytes) Date : Fri Feb 25 18:28:16 2000 From : keithgaughanNOkeSPAM@yahoo.com.invalid Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <21755ca3.7d5a3128@usw-ex0104-026.remarq.com> In article , Tiggr wrote: >In article , > Iain Williamson > wrote: > >> I would hope we can assume StrongHelp is available on most >> systems - with an alternative text file describing how to get >> StrongHelp along with concise instructions, as described by >> Rick Hudson. > > No. The only thing you can assume is that there is text editor > as one is provided in ROM. > > I hate programs which assume I have something else, indeed only > five minutes ago I clicked on a help icon to be told Stonghelp > wasn't available - I do not want to be told what software I > must have on my system, and I consider it very poor practice to > provide help via a system that is not directly supported via > either the default provisions of the OS or by means provided > with the application. > > Sorry guys and girls but the !Help file pretty much has to be > text. Please feel free to use this to point to more detailed > help (along the lines of an on line manual) but the !Help file > is there to help at application level - ie basic instructions > on running and using only, and as such should provide this > whatever else it may do. I agree. The there should be a text file giving the basic information which anybody would practically need to use the software and an online manual (eg. a StrongHelp manual or HTML) should be used as a reference work, detailing the more esoteric side of things and giving more detailed information on the program which most people wouldn't need. The question remains though - should this reference manual be outside the program or inside it with the !Help file? K. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46873 (Read 6 times, has 0 replies, 1296 bytes) Date : Fri Feb 25 18:28:17 2000 From : james@NOSPAM.jrmiller.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <1714559549%james@NOSPAM.jrmiller.demon.co.uk> Keith Gaughan wrote: > I agree. The there should be a text file giving the basic > information I agree too. My approach is to have the help information available in both plaintext and Stronghelp versions. !Help is an elementary wimp application which tries to load the Stronghelp version. If that fails, it defaults to loading the plaintext. > The question remains though - should this reference manual be > outside the program or inside it with the !Help file? In general, inside, to keep the application self contained. -- ========================================================================== James R Miller WWW/PGP: http://www.jrmiller.demon.co.uk/ Cambridge, England Stardate: 2000 Feb 24 [Thu] 1116 utc ========================================================================== . --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: No Risc ... no fun! * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46880 (Read 6 times, has 0 replies, 1752 bytes) Date : Fri Feb 25 18:28:19 2000 From : keithgaughanNOkeSPAM@yahoo.com.invalid Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: <2bbf811e.f4252a24@usw-ex0103-019.remarq.com> In article <1714559549%james@NOSPAM.jrmiller.demon.co.uk>, James R Miller wrote: >Keith Gaughan wrote: > >> I agree. The there should be a text file giving the basic >> information > > I agree too. My approach is to have the help information > available in both plaintext and Stronghelp versions. !Help is > an elementary wimp application which tries to load the > Stronghelp version. If that fails, it defaults to loading the > plaintext. My approach with that sort of thing is to use a small Obey file which checks if StrongHelp$Dir (at least I think that's the variable - my machine's 4 miles away) is set, and if it is, it opens the StrongHelp Manual, otherwise it opens the textfile. This can easily be extended to cope with HTML and so forth... >> The question remains though - should this reference manual be >> outside the program or inside it with the !Help file? > > In general, inside, to keep the application self contained. I know of some people though who prefer to have it outside. Oh, well it's just a matter of taste anyway. K. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2) ::: Area #157 (comp.sys.acorn.programmer) Message: #46923 (Read 5 times, has 0 replies, 2988 bytes) Date : Sun Feb 27 18:24:33 2000 From : Tig@whitekt.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: '10 Commandments' for programming RISC OS - what would they be? Message-ID: In article <6415929449.iain@rednova.demon.co.uk>, Iain Williamson wrote: > In message > Tiggr wrote: > > > In article , Iain Williamson > > wrote: > > > > > I would hope we can assume StrongHelp is available on most systems - > > > with an alternative text file describing how to get StrongHelp along > > > with concise instructions, as described by Rick Hudson. > > > > No. The only thing you can assume is that there is text editor as one > > is provided in ROM. > > I did use the word 'most'. > > > > Sorry guys and girls but the !Help file pretty much has to be text. > > Please feel free to use this to point to more detailed help (along the > > lines of an on line manual) but the !Help file is there to help at > > application level - ie basic instructions on running and using only, and > > as such should provide this whatever else it may do. > > Isn't this what I described above? > Sort of. I read your suggestion as Stronghelp being the definitive help system, with a backup of a text file. What I was getting at was that requests for !Help files should by *default* produce a text file, allowing interrogation of the user's system for something better being available. Looking back what probably stirred me to post was having a message telling me I need to geta copy of Stronghelp - just like all those you need Netscrap/MIE v163 to view this web page messages. Talking of web browser requirements this week's nomination for ignorant web design goes to Abbey National (there seems to be a trend of banks in my recent annoyance). Attempting to access produces just the test "Sorry, but you need a JavaScript and Frames enabled browser to view the Abbey National Website. We hope to launch an alternative, less browser-intensive site in the near future. " So much for the internet being available to anyone!! Pathetic business approach as well, at least the home page should be displayable, not just prviding me with two lines of text - lost me as a potential customer anyway (but then perhaps they don't want my debt :-( - nested :-) In the cache I do have some perfectly displayable pages which must have loaded in the background while my browser's ability was being assessed -- _____ |. _ Tig@whitekt.demon.co.uk ||(_) ____) White Knight on the Web - http://www.whitekt.demon.co.uk --- EchoMaker 0.50 # Origin: White Knight * Origin: The Arcade BBS Usenet News Gateway (2:254/27.2)