Subject: [R] Unreal Discworld Timeline V 1.07

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Heavy Spoiler Warning. All Books.

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THE UNREAL DISCWORLD TIMELINE

VERSION 1.07 The Colour of Magic - Science of the Discworld
Moderated by: Orin Thomas (orin@lspace.org)
Date: August 1999

----------------- Moderator's note: -----------------

Permission is not given by the moderator to post this on websites other
than www.lspace.org.

This is ultimately an evolving document from which much discussion will be
generated on alt.books.pratchett. There is the possibility, given the
comments of Stephen Briggs on alt.books.pratchett in March 1999, that an
official time line will be forthcoming sometime in the future.  I imagine
that the Briggs/Pratchett publication will be somewhat different from this
timeline, probably better, and I heartily recommend that you buy it.
Stephen's is the REAL Discworld Timeline - that's why this one is called
the UNREAL Discworld Timeline ;-)

I also remind you that Discworld is copyright of Terry and Lyn Pratchett,
that The Discworld Companion is copyright Terry Pratchett, Lynn Pratchett
& Stephen Briggs and the maps are copyright those three and Stephen
Player.

-------------- Submissions --------------

Disagree  with parts of this  document?  Have stuff  to add?
Email the quoted reference, the  page number, and the change  you
think it makes to orin@lspace.org. You can also bring them up on
ABP though I am not guaranteed to see them.

--------------- Since the Last Document ------------

Since the document was last posted the following comments/
objections have been posted and "added" to the timeline.

	 Raphael Kirschke's additions of minor dates and
	 seasons.

	 Nic Clarke's comments about Ridcully's Age.
	 (Ridcully is about 71 or 72 during SM). Rid
	 is 7 months younger than the Dean - who is 72.

	 Hans Manus' comment about Small Gods taking
	 place in the Century of the Fruitbat.

	 Paul Vourey pointing out the reference to
	 Cruces in DWC.


--------------

Interesting things that have popped up.

	 By my reckoning Ridcully is much younger
	 Than Granny when they have their romance.
	 There might almost be a 15 year difference.

	 Mort and Ysabelle are certainly young
	 parents aren't they.

	 Carrot is only 18 at the time of J!

--------------

Putting Years to the time spaces:

The Discworld Companion has the Ankh-Morpork civil war occuring
Grune 4 1688 (University Calendar). Lets draw a long bow and
posit that this is  in fact the civil war in which Stoneface
Vimes cut off Lorenzo the Kind's Head.  This would make the 300th
anniversary of the civil war, mentioned as a year from now in
Feet of Clay, Grune 4 1988.

So lets assume that Feet of Clay takes place in Grune 1987

Now that we have a date to work from we are really cooking with
gas.

The events of G!G!, MP, RM, L&L, MAA, SM, IT, M!M and FOC all
occur between Grune 1985 (UC) and Grune 1987 (UC). Also remember
that the UC is different from the Great Year on which the city of
AM dated during the empire.

So the University is founded in 1 (UC).  This is equivalent to AM
1282, the time near the end of the Ankh-Morpork empire. The AM
year is actually equivalent to 2 years by (UC), so the beginning
of the AM Empire is 2564 (BUU) [Before Unseen Uni]


---------------------- THE DISCWORLD TIMELINE

YEAR (UC)    EVENT

-5000     Dios helps Khuft Found Djelebeybi
		Dios is sent back in time 7000 years in Pyramids.
		This may be even further back because what if Djel
		counts 1 year as 1 rotation of the disk.

-2564     Beginning of Ankh Morpork Empire.

-1013     One Sun Mirror founds the Agatean Empire with the help
	   of the Red Army. The Great Wall is constructed. 3000
	   years prior to IT.

-750      Reign of King Tyrell. AM 907.
		Possible Ancestor of Carrot who had a
		ring with the same inscription as found
		near the Dwarf mine in Lancre. MAA.

1         Unseen University Founded by Alberto Malich.
		1282 AM.

14        Albert reverses Rite of Ashkente and ends up in
	   Death's Domain.
		Based on Statue Date 1289 AM which is 7 great
		years after the Uni founded in 1282.

900       The institution of slavery begins in Ephebe.
		Discworld RPG reference to Slavery having
		been around about 1000 years.

	   Leshp is above the sea and considered part of
	   the Ankh-Morpork Empire.

1386      A law requiring all citizens to practice
	   archery for at least an hour a week is passed
	   in A-M.

1500      One of Lady Sybil's ancestors cuts off a Klatchian's
	   head and brings it home on a pole.

1688      Stoneface Vimes Executes Lorenzo the Kind.
	   End of Monarchy in Ankh-Morpork.
	      DWC reference on Monarchy and Civil War.

	   Descendants of Lorenzo banished from A-M.
	   Movements unaccounted for until a battle
	   in 1971, almost 300 years later, which
	      results in Carrot being adopted by some
	      Dwarfs.

1689      Rule of Stoneface and Ironheads ends after
	   people vote away democratic rights. DWC.

1689      Beginning of the rule of the Patricians. DWC.

1764      Codice of Chimera kills the last Dragon.
		 200 years before TCOM.

1787      Birth of Vlad Magpyr.

1799      5 March. Lady Alice Venturi born. DWM.

1828      Wilhelmina Venuri dies. DWM.

1842      14 Spune. General Sir Roderick Purdeigh born.

1856      Margaret Purdeigh dies. DWM.

1857      Birth of Windle Poons. [Dies in RM, age 130]

1858      Major-General Sir Ruthven Purdeigh Dies. DWM.

1864      Viscount Venturi of Pseudopolis dies. DWM.

1878      Cohen the Barbarian is born.
	     Is 87 at time of TLF

1881      Hwel is born.
	     He is 102 at time of Dysk construction. WS.

1889      Cohen is chased out of village by father at age
	   11. TB

1897      12 Ick. Lady Alice Venturi dies. DWM.

1898      25 Sektoper. Gen. Sir Roderick Purdeigh goes
	   missing. DWM.

1900      Vincent, later "Old Vincent", is born. IT.

1902      Caleb the Ripper is born. IT.

1914      Count Magpry is killed by Arno Veyzen. CJ.

      Ridcully Born. Doesn't become brown until
      later :-). MP

1916      Death Rescues Ysabelle and adopts her.



1932      Ysabelle reaches age 16 and stops growing
	   older. She stays 16 for 35 years.

	   Rincewind Born. (based on Dr Rijinswand
	   age from alt reality)

1935      Some Wizards start reading A'Tuin's mind.
	   All they are able to determine is that it
	   is looking forward to something.

1938      Granny Meets Mustrum Ridcully. (50 Years
	   before L&L). Ridcully is 24 Yrs Old.
	   Granny Meets Queen of Elves.

		 [Granny is older than Ridcully
		  when they meet. I haven't pinned
		  her age down - but in WA the
		  suggestion is that she is around
		  70 or so.]

1939      Alison Weatherwax passes through Uberwald.
	   She kills Count Magpyr. CJ.

1946      Ridcully leaves Unseen University at age
	   27 for a rural life. He is a level 7 Mage.

1952      Keli Born.
	     Age 15 at time of assassination.

	   Bethan Born. 17 at age of TLF.

1956      Death of Drum Billett.
	   Birth of Eskarina Smith.

	   Twoflower starts saving for his journey.

1957      Rincewind enrols at UU. He is 24. [16 years
	   in Sourcery.]

1959      Tethys starts working at the Edge.

1961      Person later to be known as Lord Hong is born.
	   Aged 26 in IT.

1963      Birth of Sourcerer Coin.
	       Is 10 years old when he takes over UU.

1964      The Broken Drum burns down and becomes the
	   Mended Drum.
	   The events of TCOM.

	   Esk Apprenticed to Granny Age 8

	   Events of The Light Fantastic.
	   Librarian turned into an Orang-Utan
	   Ysabell meets Twoflower and Rincewind.
	   Cohen discusses his age with Rincewind. He is 87.

	   Rincewind becomes assistant librarian.

	   Nine Turning Mirrors is the Grand Vizier.

	   The Emperor is described as an "idealistic boy"
	   hence isn't the Emperor of IT.

	      TCOM takes 6 Months, TLF takes 3 Months.
	      TLF ends on Hogswatch.

1966      Granny arrives at Unseen University with Esk.

1967      Mort is apprenticed to Death.

	      (At start of year)

	   Mort stops assassination of Keli.
	   Albert returns to UU and meets Rincewind and
	   Librarian.
	   Mort and Death Fight. (Susan returns in time and
	   watches)

1968      Mort and Ysabelle get engaged.

1969      Events in the first part of Wyrd Sisters.
	   Cohen arrives at Mica's Bridge in Lancre. TB
	   Lancre and Cohen move forward in time 15 years.

	   Mort and Ysabelle get married. Become
	   Duke and Duchess of Sto Helit.

	   Imp Y Celyn is born.
	      Age 18 at time of SM.

1970      Carrot Ironfoundersson Born.
	      Age 16 at time of G!G!.

1971      Susan Sto Helit is born. [16 years before SM]

1973      Events in Sourcery. (Spring in AM)
	   Rincewind Enters Dungeon Dimensions.

1975      Cruces is a tutor at the Assasins Guild.
	   He tutors Pteppic.

1976      Events of Pyramids.

	    Starts in Summer, and takes 3 months.

	       Pteppic meets Xeno of Ephebe.

1978      Last pointless Albatross from Agatean Empire
	   arrives at A-M. Vetinari appears to be
	   Patrician at the time.

1979      Events from ERIC.
	      Rincewind escapes from Dungeon Dimensions.

	      The Archchancellor in Eric's time was Ezrolith Churn
		    - Eric page 10.

	   The countries of Elhab and Smale reach a
	   ceasefire.

	   The grandmother of Piotr Hans, of Escrow in Uberwald, dies.


1980      Rincewind ends up travelling around for next
	   few years. He runs away from many things in
	   his search for safe boredom.

1983      Vitoller Builds the Dysk.

1984      Lancre emerges from Timeslip.

	   Cohen after his conversation with Mica,
	   decides to do something really big and
	   begins his journey towards the counterweight
	   continent.

	   Leonard of Quirm goes missing.

1985      Witches head off for Genua. [WA]

	     Autumn.

	   Deccan Ribobe Dies, the last Keeper of the
	   Door.

	   Grune. Carrot Arrives in Ankh Morpork.
	   Events of Guards! Guards!
	       Based on Carrot having been in
	       A-M almost 2 years at FOC.

	   Ridcully summoned from estate to Unseen
	   University ArchChancellorship.

	   Alchemists perfect film.

	   Events of Moving Pictures.

	   Witches see the Elephant

	   Events of Reaper Man
		Year of Notional Serpent.
	      Two months according to text.

	   Carrot promoted to Corporal.

	   Rincewind, after years of running
	   every which way, ends up trapped on
	   an island.

	   Events of Small Gods.
		Year of Notional Serpent.
	       Brutha meets Xeno of Ephebe.
	       Death of Rats appears in boat.

1986      Events of Lords and Ladies

	   Dr. Cruces becomes head of Assassins Guild.
	   Date speculative. Perhaps has been head of
	   guild for a while .. but definitely before
	   MAA. Mericet, also mentioned in Pyramids
	   with Cruces is around the guild at this time
	   as well. Note reference to Cruces in DWC.

	   Men at Arms   (Men At Arms)

	   Carrot promoted to Watch Captain at age
	   of 17.

	   Soul Music

			 Ridcully is about 72

	   Intersting Times

		 Summer.

1987      Maskarade

	   Grune. FOC.

	   The Sea and Little Fishes

1988      Grune. 300th Anniversary of AM Civil War.

	   Jingo

	 Hogfather

	 Carpe Jugulum

	 The Last Continent.

	     Wizards travel Home.

1989    The Science of the Discworld

	 Vimes travels to Uberwald.

2001    Century of the ...... Cobra?
	    I distinctly remember someone showing
	    me it was something else.

2015    Librarian travels back in time through
	 lspace to 1985 to rescue books from
	 great fire of Ephebe.

	(anyone note the years and their correltation
	  with a certain trilogy of movies?)
------
NOTES:

------------------ CHARACTER TRACERS.  ------------------

The easiest way to work all this out is to trace the characters
ages, or the ages of the people that they meet.

Cohen is 87 in TLF and 95 in IT.

TLF -> IT = 8 years.

If Cohen's time line exists without some form of interruption in
this way it causes a whole lot of problems which I have deemed
the "Rincewind/Soul Music" paradox.

Let me explain:

Rincewind's TIMELINE intersects Ridcully's at IT, 8 year after
TLF. However Ridcully cannot be Archchancellor until a lot longer
than 8 years after TLF.

Ridcully doesn't become Archchancellor until MP. He isn't AC in
G!G! yet he is at the time of MAA and FOC.

There's less than two years between G!G! and FoC, but presumably
more than one.  In FoC, Vimes reflects that two years earlier
someone like Willikins the butler would have let him in the
(Ramkin) kitchen only on sufferance. There's also a comment about
it saying a lot about Carrot that even after almost two years in
Ankh-Morpork he is uneasy about writing the word d*mned, even
with the '*'. Both references are in the first few pages of FoC
(Vimes shaving, Carrot writing home over breakfast with something
wolf- shaped under the table eating scraps).

G!G! -> FOC = < 2 Years.  G!G! -> MAA -> FOC = < 2 Years.

In G!G! Lady Ramkin says "The Duke of Sto Helit is looking for a
guard Captain, I'm sure. I'll write you a  letter. You'll like
them, they're a very nice young couple." which places G!G!
between Mort and SM.

Mort -> G!G! -> SM = > 16 years.

In Soul Music Carrot  has reached  the  rank of Captain. Imp's
career takes place   after Carrot   becomes  Watch  Captain, as
Carrot  had installed the quiz machine in the Drum - SM page 71.
This rank remains until at least the events of Jingo. At the end
of FOC  Vimes is made a Knight and at the end of Jingo he is made
a  Duke. It is reasonable to assume about a 1 year separation
between FOC and Jingo.

FOC -> Jingo = 1 Year.

Looking at Watch ranks  alone,  the sequence  must  be G!G!, MAA,
SM,FoC. At  end  MAA, Detritus  is acting Constable,  Carrot  is
becoming Captain. In  SM,   Detritus is Constable  (see
piano-nicking exercise shortly after first  gig in Drum), and
Carrot  is Captain (see pre-gig description of his   downright
unconstitutional abuse  of the Quizzing machine).  In FoC,
Detritus has made Sergeant.

MP takes place after G!G! because Ridcully becomes  AC in MP and
isn't AC in G!G!. Because Windle Poons stays the same  age in MP
and RM, and we know that  there   are just  less  than 2  years
between   G!G! and FOC. Because Detritus is a Constable in SM
and then a Sergeant in FOC we also know that SM fits in there
somewhere.

G!G -> MP -> RM -> MAA -> SM -> FOC = > 2 years.

Okay so this establishes that SM occurs between MAA and FOC.
Ridcully is AC in SM and MAA so we know that MP occurs between
G!G! and MAA.

In TLF Ysabell is still living alone with Death. Let's assume
that Mort's apprenticeship started a year later, and Susan was
born two years after the events of MORT. [This does bring up the
interesting question of Mort's age at the birth of Susan. It also
brings up the interesting side issue that Susan has not taken on
duties as the Duchess of Sto Helit at age 16 because she seems to
"young" for the position. But how old was Mort when he took them

Susan is sixteen when  we  take up her story  hence the events of
SM must  take place  at least 16  years after MORT.

So we have the great rush of novels that occur at least 16,
perhaps even 18 or 20 years *after* TLF. That Ridcully does not
become Archchancellor until 18 to 20 years after TLF.

Given that Cohen's age suggest that 8 year have passed between
TLF and IT this means that the events in SM occur SM 10 years
_after_ those of IT. Mort and Ysabell died only a short time, say
9 months, before the main events of SM.

TLF -> Mort = 0-2 years.  Mort -> SM =  > 17 years.
TLF  -> SM = > 18 years.  hence IT -> SM = > 10 years.

See the problem? Ridcully *needs* to be AC a whole lot earlier
than he can possibly be because of Susan's age. The Mort -> SM
distance is also confirmed as being about 17 years on page 147
of the corgi edition.

But there is a creative solution.

It was postulated (as a cruel joke I might add :-) that Cohen
could have been stuck in the Lancre time slip. Though there is no
*direct* evidence of this, we know that Cohen visits the Lancre
area in the short Story "Troll Bridge". It provides a solution
for us which allows the time between TLF to become:

TLF -> TB -> IT = 23 years [8 years subjective for Cohen]

We had no latitude to bring the events in Soul Music backwards
beyond a specific point because we were constrained by Susan's
Age. However we do have latitude to space things out a bit so
that Soul Music occurs more than 16 years after Mort, and much
more than 18 or so years after TLF.

Lets say that there is 2 years between TLF and MORT.  How long do
the events in MORT last? Perhaps 3 or so Months, depends on how
long it takes Keli to organise a coronation - but probably not
all that long. Now Ysabelle is 16 in TLF and MORT (because of the
properties of Death's Domain) ... Mort is probably younger at the
tim of MORT - but lets be generous and say Mort is the same age
as Ysabelle. Lets assume it takes them a year to fall in love and
another year to get married (these royal weddings take time to
organise darlings). That they take over the duties of the duchy
at the time of their wedding (so they are about 18) and that 2
years later Susan is born.

so revised this comes as

TLF -> M = 2 years
M   -> Wedding = 2 years.
Wedding -> Susan = 2 years.
Susan's Birth -> SM = 16 years.
TLF -> SM = 22 years.

ER comes before WS. We know  in WS that  15 years passes. We also
know that  when Granny visits  the  University in ER  the
librarian  is an orang-utan (p 146). Hence  ER is after TLF. We
also know that the END of WS is  at least 15 years after   TLF.
Given Cohen's  age difference between TLF   and IT  it is   safe
to assume  that events  during the Rincewind books including TLC
occur in the  timeslip between the start and end of WS.

TLF  ->  ER  =     1 years.
ER ->   WS(St) =    3 years.
WS(st) -> WS(fin) =  15 years.

hence TLF -> WS(fin) = > 19 years

WS(fin) -> WA = > 2 years
WA  -> L&L = >  1 year

Hence TLF -> L&L = 22 years

Which is good enough to allow Ridcully to come to the Wedding
of Magrat and Verence.

L&L  -> M!M = > 3 Months.
M!M -> CJ = > 1 year [TSALF occurs in this period]

Hence

TLF -> M!M = > 20 Years
TLF -> CJ = > 21 Years

THE SMALL GODS QUESTION.

When  did  Small Gods  occur. The   prevailing wisdom has   it
that it occurred some time before the events  of the main
chronicles. Two sets of   character links  falsify this
hypothesis.  The philosophers from Pyramids appear  in Small
Gods. The final clincher is the fact that both Reaper Man and
Small Gods occur, according to the texts, in the Year of the
Notional Serpent.    Dr Cruces appears  in Pyramids and MAA.
Hence Small Gods is tied to the same  era as MAA. This allows the
Death of Rats (created in Reaper Man) to exist during Small Gods.
This also means that the librarian didn't need an  lspace time
portal, just a space portal, to  rescue books from  the library.
I think that Small Gods comes   after Pyramids,  in   part  due
to the  appearance of a Djelibeybian contingent in the fleet that
attacked Omnia at the end of the book:  would a pre-Pyramids
Djelibeybi  have taken part  in such a war? [granted an extremely
pre-period one would but not the one we see at the opening of
Pyramids]. The century is also confirmed as being the century
of the fruitbat.

A quotation with reguards to the Librarian and the Fire seems
to suggest that the Librarian "travelled back in time" to the
fire. I see no problem with this. As the bulk of the novel
conclusively takes place in the year of the notional serpent,
century of the fruitbat - the librarian only has to travel
from a point where that year "appears in the history books".
I've assumed 30 years hence for the purposes of the timeline.

VETINARI

The  exact start of  Lord Vetinari's reign  is unclear. Some
postulate that he was  Patrician In TCOM, though this  patrician
sounds very fat excessive in his tastes. Death  is celebrating
the 10th anniversary of the ascension of a patrician in Mort -
but not necessarily Vetinari.

The Next Century?

At the end of Pyramids , Gern tells  Dil that they  are now in
the Century  of the Cobra  rather than the Fruitbat  (P page 267)
However we also know that the century after the Fruitbat is the
century of the "Orin has Forgotten"  according to Verence's comments in CJ.

The Century of the Cobra might have been an earlier century -
perhaps when Khuft founded Djelebeybi.

--------
CREDITS.
--------

The following  people  contributed to the  original
Timeline threads during 1995.

Sam Kington) Alex Ridge (Adrian Michael Wragg) (Andrew John
Towers)(Carl Muckenhoupt) (Sebastian Weinberg) (Markus Imhof) Ben
Of Bens Ben Summers (Colm Buckley) (Craig MJ Slee) (Gareth D
Layzell)David J Morris wrote: k (Michael Dimmick) (Emmet O'Brien)
k (Mr B F Bjornsson) (Casey Richardson) (Tony Finch) (Glenn
Brady) (James Brokaw) Helen Highwater (Henri Karrenbeld) James
Allen James Gater (James Allen) Jayne Gleed Jimmy Brokaw (Joann L
Dominik) John C.  Kirk (John Rayment) (Lady Kayla) Lee Staniforth
(Leo Breebaart) (CyberCat) Marc Oldenhof > Matthew Cooper Mike
Putnan ("Richard Shearwood") Orin Thomas (Phil Boswell)("ppint.")
Richard Kettlewell ("Rupert Morrish") Rob Cotterill > (Rocky
Frisco)Roger Barnett Ryberg (Sichel, John)  Stephen Wilson Suzi
Svend Andersen(Archangel) Terry Pratchett Tom Wheeley (Vivek
Dasmohapatra)(John Wilkins) William James Booth


The following people have contributed in the 1999 version:

MSN, Tamar, Tom Walsh, Michael, Andrew Janssen, Dylan O'Donnell,
Leo Barium, Chris Connelly, Raphael Kirchke, Michael UU,
Miq, Hans Manus, Paul Vourey.


-- 
Orin Thomas. University of Melbourne
http://primus.lspace.org mailto:orin@lspace.org