Date : Tue, 11 Apr 2006 02:33:15 +0200
From : "W.Scholten" <whs@...>
Subject: bidding etc.
Jules Richardson wrote:
> Hmm, well I complain about EBay prices because I can just as easily get
> the same items elsewhere for free / almost-free. Sure, it's often
*you* may be in a position where you get loads of stuff for free
or very cheap, but that's not the case for me or most others.
> untested - but my experience of hardware has been that 95% of the time
> untested stuff works, and when it doesn't it's nearly always due to
> something simple (corroded socketed chips, dead caps in the PSU etc.)
That 95% figure looks fishy to me. Have you *fully* tested, say, all
your BBC micro's? (not just one thing like running a game from disk, but
thoroughly testing all the interfaces)
Many I have/had had various problems: 1MHz bus dead (bus buffers
defective), non starting due to IC14, dead RAM chips, startup circuit
problem, RGB output defective, the speech ICs don't work in one of my
BBCs (no idea why yet), another BBC micro didn't work with a 8271 DFS
whereas it worked fine with a 1770 interface (some components out of
spec in the BBC I think, I tried different support ICs to rule the
interface out), then we have broken solder joints in the keyboard, and I
can go on. I don't even count the exploding PS caps, and then it's
nowhere near 95%. Rough estimate: less than 40% were fully functional
until I fixed them.
In the case of Atoms, this is even worse. I think all I've ever seen had
problems: many had bad/unusable video/TV output, many had bad/unusable
cassette input, many had bad RAM, one a bad 6502, one a bad 6847, one
had EPROMs that were unprogrammed, worn out sockets (those crappy white
ones) that needed replacing, etc.
I've also played a bit with spectrums: 1 has bad RAM, one has defective
TV output (don't know if anything else fails on these machines), and one
seems to be fully working.
If your 95% is really accurate when counting all defects, then you're
incredibly lucky but it certainly doesn't look representative from my
experience and from the experiences of other people I know.
Also, whether something is simple *for you* to fix isnt' relevant to
most people. Even something relatively simple as a defective capacitor
as in the Atom video/cassette circuit is something that takes a lot of
time to diagnose (without looking on my webpage with Atom problems), get
the right part (if you don't happen to have them as spares), then fix
(for those without much soldering experience). Time is worth something.
> With people like JGH, Sprow etc. though they have a presence within the
> community, such as on this list - so there's more for them to lose if
> they go selling stuff that doesn't do what they claim.
Yes, and if you had looked closely at the auction page you would have
seen that *this is the case for the auction in question* and is one of
the reasons why I said these comments were unnuanced! (and I put it mildly)
I don't say these things for nothing.
> With EBay there's
> no such committment and it seems like an easy market to get ripped off
> to me!
Really? You're going to have cheats everywhere. Car dealers have always
been notorious. Try getting your money back there... What about any
private sale via a classifieds website? When you discover a defect, will
you go back for a refund? Will you get it?
>> In other words: Don't check into a 5 star hotel, then start complaining
>> about the prices because the 1 star hotel you know is so much cheaper.
>
>
> But again with the 5 star hotel you can do something if things don't
> perform as expected.
Which you can do in the case of the auction of the Torch/6502 2p, which
is fully supported for use and/or problems, so it *is* a 5 star hotel
thing. As I said above, *read what I write carefully*, otherwise I'm
wasting my time here and then I will not respond to postings any more,
just post my own stuff (note what I said in the past about why I do what
I do here).
In case of other auctions, well, rarity plays a part for example.
Complain all you want, but I've not seen a single good argument from
anyone complaining about the prices on ebay. They're always the 'I got
one cheaper elsewhere' type which you cannot simply generalise from. I
can give some arguments, but I'll leave it up to the reader. Think about it.
> With Ebay, all I ever hear is tales of people being
> screwed over by sellers on there and there's nothing they can do about
> it
All you hear? What do you expect, people to tell how well a
transaction on ebay went? Of course you almost only hear such stories,
as people who get ripped off will complain. People who don't, don't feel
the need to tell how well it went (except if the they got something very
cheaply, they'll often want to brag about it). This sort of behaviour
has nothing to do with ebay, it happens everywhere with good/bad
experiences: in stores, on websites, where-ever. You usually only hear
the bad ones unless there's a survey (example in NL: tweakers.net stores
reviews)
I've had a few questionable dealings out of hundreds on ebay. Since ca.
1999 (when the internet got popular with everyone and not just those who
use(d) it at university), auction sites are better than non-auction
sites due to feedback. Off-ebay I've had many dealings from 1999
on, where people whom I agreed a price with, sold it on when getting a
better offer (they didn't remove the ad) or when someone contacted that
person who could come round to pick it up (no need to post, reason
enough for some people to not follow through). The feedback seems to
provide the policing that many people need... (caveat: new
sellers/bidders of course, which also meant the first experiences on
ibazar, which was taken over by ebay later, were nearly as bad as
elsewhere).
> (except it seems, leave bad feedback about the seller - at which
> point the seller just counters by leaving bad feedback about the person
> who complained).
This is one of the many problems with ebay (feedback should not be
revealed until both have given it).
> Coupled with the whole sniping "person with the fastest
> connection wins" approach, it seems like a nasty place to do business.
You don't need a fast connection for sniping services...
Sniping is good, it means taking the whole bidding crap (which I hate as
much as anyone) out of it. I enter the value of what I think something
is worth (or that I want to pay for it at a given time) with a snipe
service, then not watch the auction again. It saves your nerves although
just having a 'don't care' attitude works as well. DIY sniping (for
which you need ADSL) is obviously also bad for the nerves unless you
really don't care about winning/losing. Sniping effectively makes it a
form of auction where the bid amounts aren't revealed until the end,
except that people who bid early, give information which means they're
in a worse position. See more on bidding/sniping on my 2nd hand webpages...
> I wouldn't have any such problem buying things from our well-known
> mailing list inhabitants if they had what I needed - there's none of the
> EBay bickering or uncertainty about the price!
I would rather sell at lower price than on ebay as it's a hassle, but,
see below.
> Come up with a sensible price and offer it here or on c.s.a.h - what's
> wrong with that?
What's a sensible price? I find it easier to set a price I want to buy
something for, than a price I want to sell something for. Maybe that's
one of the reasons ebay is popular, it's a hassle working out the sale
value (which is not the same as the buy value), so one sets the start
not too high, and on average one gets a good price that it's arguably
worth. I set the start values high, but as I support it all (not just to
solve problems that might occur), and it's all tested, I'm not taking
the chance that one bidder gets something I put a lot of effort into,
for little money. Again, my time is worth something.
I'm not going to advertise on this list. I do have a list of stuff on my
webpages, and have advertised elsewhere, but interest has always been
minimal. What I want to sell (and want to buy) varies all the time, and
as I bought whole collections (people usually didn't want to sell single
Atom/BBC items here in NL) that means loads of software & hardware &
books. Would you like to see an 'ad' from me each time I decide I don't
need a book, software package any more? Might be a good idea, but only
on a separate list. Then again, will the average person find that list?
Will it be viable? The whole reason why ebay works, is that a lot of
stuff is on offer for most subject and I think not having to come up
with values for selling helps.
> I suppose I maintain a long list of 'wants' - so that I'm never
> particularly looking desperately for any one thing. I just find rare
> stuff through maintaining good contacts and asking around (although
> granted location does help there). But I can't see the justification in
> spending a fortune on old hardware; sure it's fun but then there are a
> lot of other fun things I can be spending my money on!
That goes for everything in life. Why are many people not prepared to
pay for their hobby (which this is) of old computers, when they are
prepared to pay loads of money of other hobbies?
Another example: Why pay for new furniture when you can get similar
furniture for very low prices second hand? There are many more fun
things to spend the money on than furniture. Etc.
And what do you really mean 'there are a lot of other fun things I can
be spending my money on'? Surely this applies to any hobby, if you spend
less on one you have more to spend on another. So what?
The argument 'I can get it cheaper elsewhere' is usually flawed. It
doesn't work for everyone as I said, and there's a tradeoff, spend
loads of time scouring ads on newsgroups/websites/local mags/emailing
people if they know others etc.etc., or just glance on ebay every now
and then where you get at least 10 times more to choose from. Similarly,
you might have to wait years to get hold of something off ebay which you
can get on ebay with relative ease.
> maintaining good contacts
You happen to live in the right area, another reason you come across
things I never would.
> > Usenet: Also useless unless you want to sell your stuff for near
>
>> nothing or give it away.
>
>
> That works both ways though - also a valuable resource for finding stuff
> that's being sold for next to nothing or given away! :-)
No, because it takes too much time/effort to scan newsgroups, not enough
on offer etc. so to get something for little money would actually take
loads of effort/time. I value my time. That's why I think those dutch
collectors are crazy, they whine about the prices on ebay, yet spend
hours and hours on flea markets where they get computers often without
the manuals & power supply (reason to spend more hours trying to
complete the package from other sources). Is their time worth nothing?
Do they cycle or use a car? What do they spend on petrol then? They
just don't look at the costs of transportation/time. I like to *play
with the stuff*, not do the effort to *get hold of the stuff*!
Both sales and wanted ads I placed have had little response. I put it on
ebay and there's lots of interest. Sure, you get some things cheaply
elsewhere, but you can get bargains on ebay as well (usually from
sellers who sell untested and just want to get rid of something).
Summary: Ebay sucks in some ways, not in others. Prices range from very
low, to very high whereas elsewhere it's usually in the middle.
Anyway, this is way off-topic, I'll stop here with this.
--
Wouter
---
BBC micro | Calculators | Classic PC games: http://www.xs4all.nl/~swhs/whs/