Date : Thu, 20 Oct 1983 02:01:00 EDT
From : Herb Lin <LIN@mit-ml>
Subject: appropriate use of CPM and MICRO lists...
About two weeks ago, I forwarded to these lists an exchange between
myself and another person who believed that the ratio of my questions
to the list to the information I provided to the list was unacceptably
high. I asked the list to comment, since I was looking for advice.
Here are the replies I got from the lists. I have edited out names so
as to not violate privacy. Also, I got a number of messages (about
three) which said they agreed with another respondant, but I had
edited out the names by then, and so I couldn't tell with whom they
were agreeing. Sorry. In addition, two messages were
incomprehensible.
One other point: I should ** NOT ** have included the name of the
person who sent me mail complaining about my use of the lists the in
the first place; this was a serious breach of privacy, and I have
apologized to him. I feel particularly bad that people directed to
him personally abusive mail. I forwarded the substance of the
correspondence to the list, because I wanted guidance, and I have no
regrets about that, but in my view abusive mail has no business on the
lists under any circumstances.
Please let this msg be the end of this saga this time.
Herb Lin
**********************
If you have questions ask them. If some one feels that you ask to many then
that person can just not read mail you send, BUT I WILL BE DAMNED if he will
prevent me from reading the mail you send. This is still a free country!
***************************
I suspect your adversary has a brain-damaged mail reader.
At BRL, if I choose not to read mail from you, I simply type
'delete from Herb Lin' and all your messages go away.
What about appropriate use of CPM and MICRO lists? These are
common user resources; the users determine what's appropriate. If you
think that you have legitimate questions, then it is your right to
post them to the net.
I, too, am a little disappointed by the condition of summaries
posted to the net. I suppose that most people read rather than write.
Again, that's not any individual's fault, but the fault of all of us,
collectively, for failing to help out our fellow person.
Byrne's attack on you actually embarrassed me. I suppose anyone
can get to a point of frustration. For that, I forgive him and apologize
to you.
Keep up your questions; many of the rest of us need the
answers as well.
**********************
Herb and Byrne,
Two comments. First, use of the list, policys on messages, and
general message content are all controlled by the LIST MANAGER. This
is currently Ron Natalie RON@BRL-VGR and he should be the one to get
any complaints on how it is run. Secondly, mailing lists are a source
of discussion, learning, and experience dictating on micros. One
cannot simply wait for information to spew forth from the more
knowledgeable users, it usually has to be asked for. Often, there may
be only one or two people who can answer a particular query and
consequently there may be only a few responses. If you are waiting
anxiously for a series of posted reponses let the person know and I am
sure he/she will gladly forward copies of any responses to you. To
wrap it up, the INFO-MICRO list is DESIGNED to be a question and
answer forum for a large user base, with new members arriving and
leaving every day. Not everyone provides all answers, and not everyone
is all questions. However anyone can be one or the other and still be
perfectly within the scope of this list. Misuse consists of
advertising commericial ventures, products, or services, public name
calling (this is an open forum you know) and possibly sending the
message that generated this response, in the future keep your personal
differences to yourself or message RON@BRL-VGR.ARPA or have your name
removed from the list. The choice is yours.
*************************
Vell, sharlie, it appearrs that you have uncovered the dread ten toed
bi-ped closet flammer --and he appears to have a severe case of a hair
up his butt. Ain't nothin' wurse than a rabid flammer with an infected
rectal follicle.
Frankly, flammer (Mr. Byrne), got a dime? If you don't I will gladly
loan you one so that you can call someone who cares.
Who appointed you as the guiding light, all around guru and all knowing
censor for CPM and MICRO? Questions DO contribute a hell of a lot to
lists. One question or comment can function as the catalyst that
produces virtually volumes of information. A smart man once said "One
man's meat is another man's poison." The question you don't like may be
one I am having trouble with and consequently have a great deal of
desire to see answered.
Yeah, we do get an awful lot of inane and redundant questions. The
simple and unobnoxious solution is go on to the next entry.
***********************
I must agree with you. This (info-micro and info-cpm) is a forum for exchange
of ideas and assistance in solving perplexing situations. I am, unfortunatly,
also ignorant in grass-roots computing and have only a general knowledge.
Therefore, I welcome the chance to question the "masters" , "experts" or anyone
with more expertise in this area than I. I consider this forum more of a
learning experience than a "mailing list" per se.
************************
Approximately 1 message out of 50 on this list is of interest to me,
so I'm obliged to wade thru the trash looking for these little "pearls".
It never occured to me to suggest that the trash generators should "shut
up". Perhaps you should simply ignore BYRNE and let *him* take his case
to the dl directly. I suspect a lot of defenders for your cause would
spontaneously arise.
In particular, while wading thru the miles of trash, I often see some
interesting question brought up by the likes of yourself, and though I'd
scarcely feel like replying, I sure hate to see such questionings ruled
out.
**************************
I don't even remember your specific questions, so they couldn't have
annoyed me very much. On the other hand, I'm even more of a novice than
you in the CPM world. I occasionally get annoyed when someone asks a
question that could have been answered by a casual reading of readily
available documentation - were yours of that nature?
Also, I'm getting the feeling that too many of the people on the list
are too modest. There aren't enough of the "Gee, look at this neat
{little trick I just discovered, little hack I just wrote, etc}" kind of
messages.
Perhaps this reticence is because there are too many of the "Why are you
wasting our time with these {amateur, obvious, stupid, etc}
contributions?" kind of messages.
*********************
I too have asked a lot of questions, being new to the micro world.
I haven't been hassled by intolerant folks of the sort quoted in your message-
just lucky I guess. I like the freedom to ask dumb questions and the very
kind responses I've gotten to many. I too have not contributed much to the
list- others are much better qualified and I am as yet a CPM wizard's
apprentice- but many local folks have not asked dumb questions, because I've
shared the net wisdom garnered from my questioning. Count one vote in your
favor and please feel free to forward my response.
********************
Sorry to say, but the majority of your messages are QUITE obnoxious.
Feel free to continue to send them - but do your best to give them
serious thought before you do; check all your spelling, general format
of the message, and try to
(this is all the mailer sent to me - HL)
***************************
Sorry to hear about the flap on CPM mailing list... I got hassled
once for posting messages that were specific to cpm apples. The people
on the list said I was being reasonable, though, when I asked them
much as you have done. My money says to ignore the gripe and continue
on as before. I'd also suggest that you do indeed assume there is
interest in any info you receive in response to queries and post it to
the list. In fact I assumed that was what you were doing all along, so
I'm now confused -- were you in fact only posting summaries when you
got additional messages from people requesting copies of info you
obtained? In any case, I think its appropriate to ask questions on
the list!
(What do you say, NETLAND? Should I make this assumption?)
******************************
I HAVE NO COMPLAINTS ON HOW YOU USE THE MAILER AND INFO NETS. I
OFTEN FIND MANY OF THE QUESTINS ONES THAT I MYSELF AM CURIOUS
ABOUT.
******************************
I agree with you completely, Herb. I have been on these
lists for several years and have just been able to add
meaningful information in the last six months. (In defense of
myself, I have been a heavy TRSDOS/LDOS user and just started
into CP/M.
One other thing that you forgot to mention was that of any ten
responses to a request for information, eight will be asking
for you to forward on any other info that comes into your
mailbox.
I also thought that your message asking for feedback was
well written and has less flame than an old bottle of Tabasco
sauce. I doubt that I would have responded so civily.
****************************
Herb - I have not been the least bit bothered by your questions.
I feel that the whole idea of interest-group mail would be compromised
if people were to insist on a rigid accounting of give and take.
In other words, "your back needs scratching when it itches, not
on schedule". Of course, one can abuse this kind of relationship,
but I have no reason to suspect that you will not contribute when
you have reached "critical mass" in the micro-field and have something
to contribute. The only thing that I find really annoying on these
mail-lists is grumbling. I don't mind people asking questions,
but I feel that grumbling wastes my time. So as far as I'm concerned,
ask away.
*****************
Herb,
maybe there is such a thing as "abusing the net-public", I would
imagine so, but I have NO opinion about your guilt of such an offense.
But I am certain that there is a polite and an impolite way of
addressing someone else, and I can't stand impoliteness and
arrogance the way your "adversary" expressed himself.
takes all his credibility away, in my book anyway, and I support
your complaint for that reason, if for no other. Keep on trucking.
I don't post this, as I feel that it is unfortunate that it even needed
bringing up, and hope the topic dies down soon. But I agree, when
uncertain, ask if the "general public" feels offended by your actions.
*****************************
Bravo! Herb.
Some people on this and other lists I have seen really do take themselves
much too seriously.
I wonder where he was when the "REAL PROGRAMMER" stuff was hip deep?
Maybe you are asking questions he can't answer, and it bugs him (?)
How's about a big, juicy Bronx cheer!?!?!?!
****************************
(the following msg was sent to BYRNE, who forwarded it to me; I have
deleted some of the personal attacks against him which it contained.)
I don't know where you get your ideas of how the mailing lists should be run,
but I must ask you to look at the first archive file which has the opening msg.
in it. It says that the Info-MICRO list is for "the aid of all microcomputer
users, no matter how much experience they have.". The archives in Info-CPM say
likewise.
****************************
herb,
i have been on this list for about 12-15 months now and have
never seen any "quotas" discussed or imposed on this net. i also am sure
there is no "required level of knowledge" to participate in its use. i
believe you have, in the message from this person non-persona,a very good
example of the inappropriate use of these lists. i wonder how many fingers
on how many hands, it would take to count this guy's contributions to the
net?? anyway,keep asking the questions,usualy there are many others who
can profit by the answers.
****************************
This list is for exchange of information. If no-one asked any
questions, no-one would give any answers.
****************************
I don't see anything wrong with your asking questions. I suspect that if
anyone asked a question that you could answer, you would respond.
I think that the dls are very useful as a question/answer forum.
**********************
You can qoute me as being on your side: I don't see any reason for
this forum to be used as communications among equals. The great
part of it is that those whoe know less can learn form those who
know more.
***************************
Agree with your response. I often find the questions as useful as the
responses.
************************
Holy Catfish! When dealing with churlish people, there is no
appropriate response, I suppose.
*********************
While I am a novice of the net-mail-list world, I have never heard
of (and would be BITTERLY dissapointed to hear of) any type of quota or
limit imposed on the number of questions asked. If I were you, I would
just remember that there are a lot more horses asses than horses in the
world and write this guy off.
*************************
Re: Your Byrne friend
Sue the sucker....