Date : Mon, 03 Apr 2006 16:50:59 +0100
From : Fragula <fragula@...>
Subject: Re: Basic & BBC Basic
David Hunt wrote:
> Yeah, a Flame War, not had any **intelligent** ones for ages.
Nothing like a good flame war to stimulate the old grey matter. (of
which there seems to be plenty in here!)
> How many people as a percentage of computer users program their computer or
> even wish to program their computer.
I think a much larger percentage would, if they had the vaguest inkling
about what that meant, and how to go about it without investing £500 on
a package of the shelf.
(yes, i know its possible, but Joe Average doesn't, and Windows doesn't
exactly make it look possible.)
I'd also point out that I often find it a lot more efficient to use pen,
paper, telephone, slide rule and filing cabinet. I rarely design on
computer, they are IMO currently more hassle and distraction than they
are worth. And that includes Linux too. The Beeb was never so demanding,
just sat there and let me test values methods (a crude form of modelling
I suppose) as a kinda super-duper jumped-up programmable scientific
calculator without getting in my face about it. Well i don't have a
Windows PC -shaped hole in "the lab" (a posh garden shed with soldering
irons, meters, scopes and the like..) I DO have a model B shaped hole,
several of them actually. The only thing the beeb doesn't have is a good
web browser for spur-of-the moment datasheet lookups.
(/me realises he has left a misquote opportunity or two above, and hopes
good taste will prevail.)
In the "office" (partitioned-off quiet bit of bedroom, which, when I've
finished the current reorganise, is where I'm hoping to get back into
coding.) there is a PC-shaped hole. Doing the books, printed letters,
scanning, email, that sort of thing.
> Microsoft is like Tesco,
Oh come on! If Tesco were like Microsoft, I'd throw up every time I ate
a meal! Probably be poisoned dead by now.
> most of these people use their computer to do a task and aren't
concerned about the
> Windows vs. everything else debate.
Most of "these people" are simply unaware of the possibilities, or even
of what a computer really is.
> I think the new Linux distros have address many of the shortcomings of using
> Linux, notably the inclusion of a better UI, more Windows transition
> features and better integration into Windows "networking".
Yes, I'll agree with that.. Also, I actually kinda like more recent
versions of Windows networking, at least vs. (non-acorn) generic NFS.
> But don't forget,
> because the user's experience is only superficial, they can move from one
> system to another. Only a few simple metaphors need to be expressed by the
> new system, e.g. MacOSX users can use Windows XP and vice versa.
I reckon a MacOS user will have more hassle moving to XP than I had
(frexample) going from CP/M to MicroRSX to DOS to Linux.
The problem is, a graphical metaphor is not that obvious. (I gave up
doing telephone support for several small businesses when they moved
from DOS to windows 3.1. "Hi, i've got a yellow and red pointy thing on
my screen, what is it?" and the like were frequent occurences.
Now its all about *remembering* the rather obtuse metaphors for
installing a driver, deconfusing multiple network connections, and the
thousand and one other "intuitive" mistakes that people make.
> Microsoft have realised this and have looked for a new market. They've now
> launched an assault on your front room with the Windows XP Media Center
> Edition and the XBox 360 (300W of heat flying out the back, wow does it have
> a noisy DVD drive, I thought the fans were noisy!).
Have they? Like an assault of flies on a windscreen. Linux MediaPC there
now. :-) Ok.. The wife can't work it, but she couldn't work the windows
playback either. The kids can, no problem. And even the wife can handle
logging in daily to check her email and horoscopes.
> We are programmers and tend to forget the majority of people have the merest
> of passing interest into what goes on "under the hood" - how many people
> understand how electricity is generated and distributed, understand the
> difference between a switch mode and linear PSU, the difference between a
> Wankel engine and a piston engine, the crystalline structure of metal in a
> spanner! Not many, but it doesn't stop them from using them and gaining the
> benefit of them.
Ah. Less and less people do. Now, frexample in 1970, how many people
would even consider taking their car to the garage to get the oil
changed? Not many. Folk just got on and did it. They replaced glass in
their own windows, fixed squeaky floorboards, changed the fusewire. Even
(actually especially) the grey-haired.
Nowadays, .. and it really does amaze the hell out of me .. people where
I work, educated people, allegedly intelligent, will take their cars to
the garage to have the oil changed, and some, even to have their tyre
pressure checked! :-O They don't know that slipping the clutch wears it
out fast, that changing down a gear instead of labouring the engine is
good for the car and the environment, that its a good idea to break
earlier in the wet, or that its good to use a higher gear than usual in
snow.
Put another way, they are <searches for word> ignoramii that really
shouldn't be allowed on the road.
And heaven forbid, should one of these poor dears scald themselves while
foolishly checking the coolant, the E.C. nannyocrats will doubtless
declare ALL self-maintainance to be an act of gross recklessness, if not
sedition, insist that bonnets are welded shut at the factory, and impose
stiff penalties for anyone attempting to check their own tyre pressure.
> So who's going to predict the downfall of Microsoft ?
I'd *love* to, but not just yet.
Now its plain to see that people in here, at least a substantial
portion, have not yet succumbed to the chemicals in the water,
subliminals etc., that must be driving society toward this
suicide-of-self-determination, but what of the rest of the world? Do we
not have a responsibility for them? For the people of the future?
> Am I worried, nope, if he choses to get into
> programming he'll either take the slap happy "Programmers get paid £50k,
> I'll figure out how to code for that money!" or "I like programming,
> wouldn't it be nice if someone paid me to do it".
If he ever gets the choice. I guess Uncle David might have a part/duty
to play in that.
> In my experience I have had a lot of the former pass through my hands,
> usually into management (horror)
These might be the people who get short shrift off me when they phone me
in tears at 3AM on xmas day, because they can't get their shiny new
Packard Bell to work.
> the latter have been good friends over the years.
And these might be like the recipients of this list.
>
> I'd imagine you would get few takers for genuine programming with
> Information Technology and Electronics. It is a hard path to tread compared
> with Combined Science, Humanities, Literature etc. Other less well trodden
> paths, Physics, Electronics, Maths, Chemistry, Biology, Computer Science,
> see a pattern here?
Yep.. And then we (qualified, or as in my own case, not terribly (2xC&Gs
with credits) get equal treatment as those who's salaries are
scale-limited by those who exploit the fruits of our labours.
But I'm working my notice now, so I don't feel so bad about it. :-)
>
> If you can get kids to do some programming, great, I don’t think you'll get
> much funding for it because of the perceived lack of interest. Perhaps
> running a "computer club" would give those kids who want to get involved in
> computers at an early age, an opportunity to learn more.
Its occured to me a run a computer club for adults. Don't think I'm
quite ready to deal with people under.. Uhh used to be 13 or so
nominally, but now that the Darwin Effect is being hampered by Health
And Safety, its probably more like 21.
> IIRC businesses tend to use Microsoft products, the Board of Governors is
> pretty well made up from people who use Microsoft products.
That ought to be illegal!
The teachers
> moved from Acorn to RM Nimbus PC386 Win 3.1,
That should have been illegal to!
> so it's a bit of an uphill
> struggle to move teachers away from this. Mind you Microsoft is now well
> entrenched in the NHS too, anyone heard how Tony Blair is going to spend £38
> billion
In a country of 80-odd million people.
> on new IT for the Health Service?
... which will never work properly...
> Anyone also know many are based on
> .NET 2003 and SQL Server 2000?
Nope, probably 100%. New Labour doesn't mess up by fractions!
> Did you know that there is a NHS wide licence
> agreement for most Microsoft products.
Bizzarely I Do. Ony of my "hobbles" is in a hospital dept. that "cant
get the staff". Seems every time there is a "managed change" from the
centralised IT people, they have to get me in on saturday morning to fix
it so that the essential stuff will work on Monday.
> I am near Putney bridge (Boat Race), sitting on a wall using someones
> wireless connection to talk to an OSX server which connects to my Windows PC
> running Microsoft Office 2003 Outlook. The laptop is a Dell running Fedora6
> Linux and I'm using VNC. At least it's stopped raining...
>
> Hooooray for choice.
Indeed. I wonder how long it might be before Microsoft Trusted Computing
is legally imposed on us. All in the name of National Security, of course.
Guess that might depend on how big the houses and shiny the shoes that
the next generation of First Ladies in US and UK want.
Or am I just cynical?
Cheers!
M.